|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Summations Only | Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 4870 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: What's the problem with teaching ID? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
DivineBeginning writes: You think being a Christian is easy? I was responding to what you said in Message 33:
quote: You said that it was easier for you. I simply suggested that we should be teaching our children what's right, not what's easy for us. I quoted Jesus saying the same thing. As for persecution, it's probably not easy being a Muslim in a Christian majority or a Mormon in a Christian majority or a Jehovah's Witness in a Christian majority. In a country with many minorities, which version of ID would you teach? Could you really teach ID without the Designer looking like your personal God? In the end, once you've said, "That looks like it was designed," what else can you teach about ID? All you have left is partisan descriptions of what the Designer is like. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
bluegenes Member (Idle past 2503 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
In any education system, the idea is to teach science in the science class, history in the history class, French in the French class, etc.
I was at in High School in the U.S. for a few years, and that's what you guys used to do, and presumably still do. So the real question for this thread is "Is I.D. science". My answer to that would be that, because there is no direct evidence for the intelligent designers, then the I.D. people would have to show very strong indirect evidence for their existence to get started as a science, and that is what they are trying to do. That means demonstrating that some natural phenomena cannot be produced naturally, within the laws of the universe. So, far, they haven't done this, so I.D. isn't science. Decisions on what is and isn't taught in any discipline in any epoch can only be made by the experts in that discipline. The historians decide what the priorities are in history, the geographers in geography, etc. So, the I.D. scientists should be doing what everyone else with a new hypothesis in science does; trying to convince their peers that they're on to something important. But they can't do this, because scientists are sticklers for evidence, and they haven't actually got any yet. But they're religious evangelists, and all such people seem to know instinctively that religions need to indoctrinate young minds in order to survive. So they're trying to skip convincing the scientists, and get in the classrooms. The funny thing about this is that if I.D. was taught in the classroom, then all science teachers could do is outline the idea, then tell the students that there's absolutely no evidence for it. In other words, no evidence of the existence of a great intelligent designer in the sky. Which is why it's funny, because that's the last thing evangelical Christians want taught in schools. And that's partly why the smarter Christians don't want anything to do with I.D. So, I.D. isn't science at this point in time, so it shouldn't be taught in science classes, with one slight exception, which I think I mentioned way back at the beginning of this thread somewhere. That's when the history of science is being taught. Then, the early nineteenth century William Paley version should certainly be taught. How else will students understand why Richard Dawkins would entitle one of his books "The Blind Watchmaker", and what the real and important meaning of that (excellent) title is?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
anglagard Member (Idle past 863 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Bluegenes writes: In any education system, the idea is to teach science in the science class, history in the history class, French in the French class, etc. Looks like that's what they say in the UK according to the curriculum guidelines just unveiled.
quote: Full story here: Blogposts | The Guardian More at the source that guided me to the guidelines: The Panda’s Thumb Sorry for the rhyming, not in a prose mood. Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
bluegenes Member (Idle past 2503 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Thanks for the links, anglagard. It's not a big issue, here, really. You hardly ever hear about it.
If a significant proportion of U.K. parents were really serious about having their children taught creationism, they could always get off their arses, and go to church once in a while, couldn't they? (5% regularly attend religious services, and if it's Church of England or Catholic, they're not creationists in the sense that we use the word on EvC, anyway). I think it's funny that the creationist movement has wasted money on what must've been tens of thousands of DVDs. Edited by bluegenes, : bad spelin
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Spektical Member (Idle past 6003 days) Posts: 119 Joined: |
Just like the Koran, Gita and Torah, the bible's purpose was only to help the social evolution of humans...it should only be studied in a social history class that deals with how human societies evolved.
It is only human-made symbolism.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Just like the Koran, Gita and Torah, the bible's purpose was only to help the social evolution of humans...it should only be studied in a social history class that deals with how human societies evolved. It is only human-made symbolism. Yes, well, I should point out that if just saying stuff like this convinced people, then we could have finished the whole debate a while back, knocked off early, and gone down the pub. This isn't much more of a contribution to debate then a fundie posting to say "The Bible is the literal word of God so we're right and you're wrong". (See post #103 for a fine example of the genre.) That said ... welcome to the forums. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Spektical Member (Idle past 6003 days) Posts: 119 Joined: |
First of all thank you for welcoming me . Second, I guess teaching ideas like creationism in science class would force the educational system to redefine the scientific process, which is based on hypotheses that are rigorously tested and PROVEN. Now since nothing in the bible can be PROVEN, it would be impossible to test it. This of course implies that the purpose of the bible is to help a person exercise his/her faith muscles. However, faith in what exactly? I cannot blindly have faith in something I can't sense, not to mention my curiosity. How does it account for curiosity?
The religious way of thinking is cyclical and is meant to go nowhere. 'I have to believe in a god because I OWE him my love and I should just leave it at that?' Religion is ONLY a capitalistic tool. So teaching it in school is equivalent to labotomizing our children for future assembly line livelihoods. Thank you
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3954 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Religion is ONLY a capitalistic tool. clearly it is not since religion predates capitalism.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Spektical Member (Idle past 6003 days) Posts: 119 Joined: |
By capitalism I meant the invention of money and the exchange of money between people...which is essentially the basis of capitalism. So really capitalism predates religion.
Also wanted to suggest the writings of Gerald Massey and the free film Zeitgeist.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3954 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Zeitgeist. *rolls eyes* just because something originates from a "skeptical" source doesn't make it any less bullshit.
By capitalism I meant the invention of money and the exchange of money between people...which is essentially the basis of capitalism. this is a horribly flawed understanding of capitalism. hard currency does not capitalism make.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Spektical writes: Religion is ONLY a capitalistic tool. I don't know if I'd emphasize "only" but I tend to agree. I've suggested in other threads that the original purpose of the levitical law was to provide a reliable food source for the priests. There may be some innate "need" for the spiritual in humans but religion per se is about the exploitation of that need. Similarly, the religion of creationism/ID is an exploitation of the human need to know. You can get "knowledge" to rival the best scientists in exchange for cash - and watching a video is a lot quicker than getting a degree. If we're going to teach ID in schools, we might as well teach every other get-rich-quick scam while we're at it. Edited by Ringo, : Speling. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Spektical Member (Idle past 6003 days) Posts: 119 Joined: |
Why are you rolling your eyes re: zeitgeist...the movie is not completely accurate but its a good starting point to more accurate data/studies ie. gerald Massey.
If you think hard enough about the logic of religion, you'll notice that its nothing more than a catch 22 sales pitch.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3954 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
its a good starting point to more accurate data/studies ie. gerald Massey. or you could skip all the crap and learn about actual science.
If you think hard enough about the if you think hard enough about anything, it starts to become a sammich. all philosophy has the same bullshit potential; it's just the flavor of the week. also, massey was a druid. oh, that's the height of reason. Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Spektical Member (Idle past 6003 days) Posts: 119 Joined: |
Well you're definitely making me clarify myself . What I meant by 'think hard' was just research.
And sure it is the flavour of the week....its not meant to be a permanent message anyways...just a means to help get humanity through a transitional period of self realization.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3954 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
"humanity" is doing just fine without internet crap videos.
also, i believe that period was called "the enlightenment" and happened a hundred years ago. we've moved on, why haven't you?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024