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Author Topic:   Sequel Thread To Holistic Doctors, and medicine
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 15 of 307 (424549)
09-27-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
09-27-2007 4:15 AM


Percy writes:
You continue to use anecdote to argue for anecdote and against science. Perhaps you should conduct a double-blind study of the relative effectiveness of anecdote and double-blind studies.
This is a shallow accusation. Most medicine is practiced anecdotally because doctors don't really know what their prescribed drugs do to their patients, other than their patient's anecdotal accounts of them, which are of course subjective. Sure, the drug companies will boast about their clinical trials with double-blind statistical designs. Drug companies want to sell drugs. And right about here is where this thread joins up with the Alan Alda's polio. Taking prescription drugs naively and on the advice of drug-company lapdogs”the commercial physicians”is like drinking the Kool-Aid served up by the Mumbler-In-Chief. But what the hell, it's good for the economy.
You also continue to denigrate medical science. As bad as you think it is, and even if everything you said were actually true, it's still far and away superior to any alternative.
Is it? Just how do you measure that? Just how far away and superior is it to any alternative? Why don't doctors routinely prescribe yoga and proper dietary regimes to treat depression instead of anti-depressant drugs? Answer: $$$. If Cho Seung-Hui had been on yoga instead of ADs he might not have shot up the VT campus and killed 32 students. ADs also cost my own cousin her life when she shot herself in the head while dropping those pills. I know, you'll say those are just isolated anecdotes. But they're not. Your touted double-blind tests never screened for that.
For example, world mortality rates have not dropped because of the contributions of alternative medicine, but because of improvements in the delivery of traditional medicine to more regions of the world.
Well, yes, I would excpect "traditional medicine" to help reduce world mortality rates for those out squating in the bushes. But that doesn't prove the sainthood of the medical-pharmaceutal complex. Sure, some progress has been made, but not always without calamity. Here's one possible example: As discussed in the Message 8, the development of the polio vaccine may have unwittingly set off the AIDS pandemic.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 09-27-2007 4:15 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 09-27-2007 2:31 PM Fosdick has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 26 of 307 (424637)
09-27-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Modulous
09-27-2007 2:31 PM


Modulous writes:
And taking non-prescription drugs naively and on the advice of a naturopath or their lapdogs, the commercial naturopaths, is like walking into the forest to speak to wise woman who heard that beetle wings are an effective cure for TB.
...and like chewing on willow bark because some natives say it will ease your aches and pains?
If you think the system is corrupt - making a different system with less checks and balances is not the solution to remove corruption. After all - naturos get to sell their products without needing to spend lots of money and time testing their product or conducting trials - they have less overheads so they get more profit. Surely then, corruption and confirmation bias is more likely - not less?
I agree with you entirely. I'm likewise suspicious of holistic medicine. But good public education is the best check and balance. I want to see America's children become well-enough educated to understand the difference between good medicine and bad. And I want them to know that some aspects of capitalism can be downright unhealthy for them. We're in an historical drug crisis right now, and authorities think it's about marijuana. No, it's really about legal drugs and their derivatives that get out on the street. I also want the kids to learn that most supplements do almost nothing to support good health, but a few do. Cod liver oil is as good as anything else. Kids need to understand which ones are good, useless, dangerous without the profit motive getting in the way. And they need to learn that the worst drug of all is Kool-Aid.
It's the Kool-Aid drinking that really bothers me”the kind that promises a good bankroll, a good sex life, and a good war. I wish young people could see that more clearly, but it'll take a draft to do it. And I wish the schools would address the whole picture of drugs properly and without the use of those snipy DARE programs, but capitalism filters out the kind of education they need.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 09-27-2007 2:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2007 2:25 AM Fosdick has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 45 of 307 (424732)
09-28-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Modulous
09-28-2007 2:25 AM


willow bark
Mod writes:
Exactly. Like when your pancreas is inflamed, and you think that Morphine is as effective as Kool Aid, and that Willow Bark is much better....
I was assuming you knew that aspirin was originally derived from willow bark.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2007 2:25 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2007 10:46 AM Fosdick has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 47 of 307 (424738)
09-28-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Percy
09-28-2007 10:33 AM


Percy's reply to LindaLou
Percy writes:
Further, the opinions of a couple scientists cannot outweigh the preponderance of medical opinion. The likelihood of the majority of a large community being wrong is much smaller than the likelihood that a couple mavericks are wrong. You're just piling fallacy upon fallacy.
You see, LindaLou, how the owner of this forum encourages such sniping? With "the preponderance of medical opinion" being as often wrong as it is right, intelligent people have to decide for themselves who's "piling fallacy upon falacy." And when intelligent people miss seeing the falacy of the medical-pharmaceutal complex, they too will be ready to swallow a little purple pill with another dose of Kool Aid.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 09-28-2007 10:33 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by nator, posted 09-28-2007 9:26 PM Fosdick has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 49 of 307 (424821)
09-28-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Modulous
09-28-2007 10:46 AM


Re: willow bark
Mod writes:
I did, I was assuming you knew that there were effective painkillers produced by the corrupt pharma industry - but you went and implied they were as effective as Kool Aid. That's why I mentioned the pancreas. I hope yours never gets inflamed - but if you start chewing willow bark, you will regret doing so very very quickly.
I've never had an inflamed pancreas. And if I did I'm sure I'd be seeking medical attention and taking those painkillers. And if I had a kidney stone I'd go looking for the nearest urologist with access to a lithotripter. There's good things about medicine, of course. I want all sick children to have access to the best and right doctors who prescribe the best and right drugs. Drugs do help people and so do doctors. True enough.
But there's more to the picture if you care to look at it. The winds of capitalism eventually blow those magnamimous ships of industry off course. Our capitalistic society is promoting a drug culture. I see a connection between the pills sold on TV and the pills sold on the street. It's the Drug Culture either way, and that is what I'm complaining about. It's bigger and badder than Osama bin Laden.
At least I think it's a big deal. Education is our only way out of this mess.
Hope you're back to good health.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2007 10:46 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2007 5:15 AM Fosdick has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 64 of 307 (424940)
09-29-2007 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by nator
09-28-2007 9:26 PM


Do doctors get it wrong half the time?
nator writes:
HM writes:
With "the preponderance of medical opinion" being as often wrong as it is right,
You soupport for this asserion would be...?
There’s plenty of evidence that doctors get it wrong too often, and sometimes people say
doctors do the right thing only about half the time. I’ll let you do the Googling to find out. But I am probably wrong about generalizing such statistics across the entire med establishment. I can’t prove that they are wrong half the time. So, you may be more right about this than I am. Do you have any statistics to offer?
Still, I have personal experiences to consider, which led me to make the statement you have criticized. These bad experiences, involving either myself or people I know or knew, were pretty bad; at least four people have lost their lives as a result. Those cases were associated variously with wrong diagnoses, treatments, and prescriptions. Most recently one of my closest friends allowed his doctor to insert radiation pellets in his cancerous prostate, which eventually gave rise to 26 cancerous polyps in his bladder. "Over-radiation," they say. Now he has neither his prostate nor his bladder and he's asking if he should have taken that medical advice or just let nature take its course. He's probably going to die either way.
But as I have said elsewhere, many doctors are well intentioned and try to do the right thing. Many are saints for their dedication to helping people. Yet the profit motives or their clinics and pharmaceutical companies, not to mention those greedy lawyers and insurance companies, often confound the practice of medicine more than improve it.
You can form your own opinions and make your own choices about going to doctors. I have done likewise. And I'll try to stay away from them until some dire situation befalls me. Then I may have to eat my words and go get their dubious services.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by nator, posted 09-28-2007 9:26 PM nator has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 66 of 307 (424948)
09-29-2007 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Modulous
09-29-2007 5:15 AM


Re: willow bark
Mod writes:
Would you care to comment how holistic doctors, naturopaths etc etc have managed to overcome the winds of capitalism? All I have seen is that they simply don't spend the same levels of money on research and development as well as tests and trials so they can make profit without charging as much as the pharmaceutical industry. Would you be happier if the pharmaceutical industry lowered its prices and reduced its research and tests so that you end up with a doctor who prescribes medicine because it worked for his neighbour's aunt?
I see your point. It's a good one. And you seem to have a personal experience with the med-pharm complex that was positive. The way you phrase your challenge is also good. Yes, you're right. We need the drug industry and the doctors and the check and balances our society offers.
But I still object to the commercial side of the med-pharm complex. It promotes a dependence culture as it profiteers on people's willingness to find the easy way out...beaches at sunset, hand in hand, Viagra in his pocket...he'll be hard when he needs to be (...but if his erection lasts too long, so as to be a walking hazard, he'll need to go see a doctor right away). Is this really a good thing for men? No, it's downright unnatural. I can't image how Tarzan could have swung on any vines after using Viagra.
Maybe I'm the only one who worries about where the American body-and-mind is evolving. I have to agree with those who think we might be entering a post-Darwinian phase in our evolution, and our growing reliance on drugs may be part of that. Don't you think we ought to question the values that are forced upon us by capitalism?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2007 5:15 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2007 1:11 PM Fosdick has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 71 of 307 (424972)
09-29-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Modulous
09-29-2007 1:11 PM


Make-believe Viagra
Mod writes:
Capitalism seems much bigger in the states.
I'll risk the wrath of an Admin for saying that my youngest grandson's kindergarten teachers give the kids Happy Bucks for being good. And then the kids get to go spend their Happy Bucks at the Happy Mall. That's a play shopping mall where their rewards can buy them the things they want in make-believe capitalism. When I complanied to my daughter about this she said: "Dad, we live in a capitalistic country! What do expect? Get over it!"
Sorry for veering.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2007 1:11 PM Modulous has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 72 of 307 (424975)
09-29-2007 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by molbiogirl
09-29-2007 4:23 PM


Re: Hoffer and Pauling
mbg writes:
I am trained to think thru the principles behind any given claim made in a paper.
I don't simply accept a paper's conclusions based on its publication in a respected journal.
No research scientist does.
I feel about the same, having been a research scientist myself. If authors will tell me upfront and unambiguously what key principles and assumptions have led them to their conclusions I'll take their findings for a ride. And many if not most research scientists will enlist numerous publications from respected journals to support their conclusions. But if they happen to use bad ones somebody's going to spot them and their arguments will suffer. In the labs and firms where I worked the internal peer-review systems were so severe that no paper ever got to any respected journal without a harsh wire brushing.
But now I like to run with just about anything...like tsetse-fly genes in your genome.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by molbiogirl, posted 09-29-2007 4:23 PM molbiogirl has not replied

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