Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Sequel Thread To Holistic Doctors, and medicine
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 91 of 307 (425130)
09-30-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Percy
09-30-2007 3:06 PM


Re: Reply to LindaLou
Percy, thank you for your painstaking responses here. I don't want you to think that your time is unappreciated. However, I do think that I need to call it a day on this thread. It's taking a huge amount of time and energy on my part, and the penny finally dropped today that there isn't a lot of point to it because we all seem to be very firm in our views on this issue.
Since I wrote my last post, I've been browsing the Doctor Yourself site, which I hadn't visited in a while. I've read an article by Dr. Saul on cancer. This is what speaks to me. I have little faith left in mainstream medicine unless I need a broken leg fixing, or a transplant, or something similar. You're welcome to pity the poor illogical fool that I am I'll see you elsewhere on the forum.
"If we doctors threw all our medicines into the sea, it would be that much better for our patients and that much worse for the fishes." Oliver Wendell Holmes, M.D.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Percy, posted 09-30-2007 3:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Percy, posted 09-30-2007 4:10 PM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 93 by nator, posted 09-30-2007 5:44 PM Kitsune has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 92 of 307 (425131)
09-30-2007 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Kitsune
09-30-2007 3:32 PM


Re: Reply to LindaLou
LindaLou writes:
Since I wrote my last post, I've been browsing the Doctor Yourself site, which I hadn't visited in a while. I've read an article by Dr. Saul on cancer. This is what speaks to me. I have little faith left in mainstream medicine unless I need a broken leg fixing, or a transplant, or something similar.
You're again reacting to a point I wasn't making. Maybe mainstream medicine is just as bad as you say it is. Naturally I, and most others here, disagree with you. But let's assume for the sake of discussion that the aspects of mainstream medicine that you've been focused on are just as bad as you say.
What's the better approach?
Anecdote? No, of course not.
Conclusions at odds with the consensus of mainstream medical opinion? Again, of course not.
Here's a possibility to consider. One reason that quacks have been so successful through the ages, particularly those using approaches that did no harm, is that people recover from a great many illnesses and conditions with just the passage of time, and those that do recover will likely credit any quack treatments they might have received. You might have gotten better simply because you got better and not because of any diet change.
But you'll never know because for you your recovery and subsequent good health is evidence in itself, when what is really required to know what happened for sure is a well-designed clinical study of a number of people in situations similar to yours.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Kitsune, posted 09-30-2007 3:32 PM Kitsune has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 307 (425140)
09-30-2007 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Kitsune
09-30-2007 3:32 PM


Re: Reply to LindaLou
quote:
"If we doctors threw all our medicines into the sea, it would be that much better for our patients and that much worse for the fishes." Oliver Wendell Holmes, M.D.
Tell me, what is the non-Allopathic method used to treat anaphylactic shock brought on by a severe allergic reaction to a bee sting?
What is the non-Allopathic way to cure a kidney infection so advanced there was blood in the urine? Or severe tonsilitis so bad that the tonsils were completely covered with white blood cells?
If it wasn't for mainstream medicine, I would be dead at the age of 6, or I'd have permenent kidney damage from the age of 25.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Kitsune, posted 09-30-2007 3:32 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Kitsune, posted 10-01-2007 2:31 AM nator has replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 94 of 307 (425183)
10-01-2007 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
09-30-2007 5:44 PM


Re: Reply to LindaLou
Nator I've said in 3 posts here at least, that I am not "against" allopathic medicine. I think the diagnose-and-prescribe philosophy is wrong, when "prescribe" almost always means drugs. Sometimes drugs and surgery are necessary, I've never denied that here.
I think I've made my case, whatever you may think of it; and it seems people are still keen to engage me on this, but I want to move on to something else now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 09-30-2007 5:44 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 7:27 AM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 97 by purpledawn, posted 10-01-2007 8:24 AM Kitsune has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 307 (425195)
10-01-2007 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Kitsune
10-01-2007 2:31 AM


Re: Reply to LindaLou
quote:
I think the diagnose-and-prescribe philosophy is wrong, when "prescribe" almost always means drugs.
My mother in law has rapid-onset Altzheimer's disease and bipolar disorder. Before she was diagnosed, she was a raving paranoid delusional lunatic. She had thrown out all most all of the family photographs in her posession. She was violent towards my 83 year old father in law who is frail and gets around with a walker and an oxygen tank. She stopped paying her bills and taking her other medications, so her heat and phone were turned off. The police had been called to the house and she screamed and yelled at them and threw furniture. She was dangerous to herself and her husband. she hated all of her sons and accused them of trying to kill her. She was also miserable and afraid.
All of this happened within a couple of months.
After her diagnosis and going on those horrible, evil medications that you hate so much and tell everyone that they should avoid them like the plague, she is now nonviolent, makes jokes, cooks, watches TV, is loving and wonderful towards everyone in her family like she used to be, and in general is very happy now. Oh, and the rapid progression of her Altzheimer's is has been slowed due to those terrible medications, too.
There. That's my anecdote. Seems to run completely counter to your stories, doesn't it? Which one of us wins the battle of the anecdote?
quote:
Sometimes drugs and surgery are necessary, I've never denied that here.
That is not the impression you are making.
Not at all.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Kitsune, posted 10-01-2007 2:31 AM Kitsune has not replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 96 of 307 (425197)
10-01-2007 7:36 AM


I know it is a reply to LindaLou
And it has been since Message 9. New title people, new titles...please

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073]

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 97 of 307 (425200)
10-01-2007 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Kitsune
10-01-2007 2:31 AM


References and Anecdotes
quote:
Sometimes drugs and surgery are necessary, I've never denied that here.
That's one of the difficulties in this debate.
My own position is that it isn't an all or nothing situation. There are situations that only allopathic medicine can deal with and there are things that the natural approach does better. There are also situations, where the two can complement each other in restoring us to health.
Double blind studies are nice, but sometimes we are in a situation where the allopathic isn't working. In desperation to feel better we search elsewhere. People have found relief from complementary or alternative medicine (CAM).
While anecdotal results do not have the double blind stamp of approval, when we are in a position of need, we don't have time to wait for scientists to take interest, find the money and run the tests that might meet our needs. Anecdotes give us something to research or spark questions to ask, even when it is something that another allopath did differently.
IMO, anecdotes also spark scientists to do the testing. Tribal anecdotes are what sparked scientists to test natural elements in search of cures.
People take risks with their lives; whether smoking, alcohol, driving, sports, etc. Unless we are unconscious adults supposedly have an option of what risk they will take, even when it comes to medical procedures. Fortunately, I have not been in a life threatening situation where more than one option with varying risk factors were involved.
I have agreed many times since the beginning of this discussion that laws, procedures, etc. need to be put in place to protect the average person from quacks. But I don't agree that the natural approach should be abandoned or made inaccessible.
The problem for the average person right now, as we have seen in this debate, are dueling scientists or medical doctors. It leaves the average person in a quandary, because those are the people who are supposed to have the knowledge. The average person also knows from history that ideas deemed "crazy" sometimes prove to be viable. So the argument that mainstream doesn't accept the practice is no longer a strong selling point. Ridiculed Discoverers, Vindicated Mavericks
The bottom line is we aren't carbon copies. What works well for one person doesn't always work well for another. References from others are what we use to discern whose services to try, whether mechanics, hair dressers, doctors, dentists, etc. Even in something as benign as a plumber, we don't all have the same good/bad experience. The same goes for allopathic or CAM.
Anecdotes of problems experienced serve to help someone in a similar situation to ask better questions, but I don't feel we should tell others to abstain. They have to weigh the choices and the risks themselves. They may know someone with a good experience in the same situation.
As I said, we aren't carbon copies. What works for one, may or may not work for another and vice versa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Kitsune, posted 10-01-2007 2:31 AM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 9:03 AM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 307 (425205)
10-01-2007 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by purpledawn
10-01-2007 8:24 AM


Re: References and Anecdotes
quote:
People take risks with their lives; whether smoking, alcohol, driving, sports, etc. Unless we are unconscious adults supposedly have an option of what risk they will take, even when it comes to medical procedures.
ND's and other non-scientific practitioners and manufactuers generate fabulous profits while encouraging people to take often completely unknown risks with their health.
quote:
I have agreed many times since the beginning of this discussion that laws, procedures, etc. need to be put in place to protect the average person from quacks. But I don't agree that the natural approach should be abandoned or made inaccessible.
If a natural approach to any particular disease or condition is shown to be effective and safe, as many have, then they become part of mainstream medicine. If an herb or procedure is demonstrated to be worthless, it absolutely should be abandoned or made inaccessable. The responsibility for demonstrating safety and efficacy should fall upon the manufacurers, and they should do so before they are permitted to profit.
But why should the manufactuers and marketers of medicinal herbs, for example, be allowed to profit from the sale of their products before their products are demonstrated to be safe and effective?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by purpledawn, posted 10-01-2007 8:24 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Percy, posted 10-01-2007 9:20 AM nator has not replied
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 10-01-2007 1:02 PM nator has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 99 of 307 (425207)
10-01-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
10-01-2007 9:03 AM


Re: References and Anecdotes
nator writes:
But why should the manufactuers and marketers of medicinal herbs, for example, be allowed to profit from the sale of their products before their products are demonstrated to be safe and effective?
This is one of the key questions surrounding alternative medicine, since so many of its claims are based upon herbs and vitamins and other supplements. The reason we're in this sad situation where these items are not regulated by the FDA is because when congress passed the laws that established the FDA, language was inserted specifically grandfathering and thereby excepting these categories.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 9:03 AM nator has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 100 of 307 (425238)
10-01-2007 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
10-01-2007 9:03 AM


Re: References and Anecdotes
quote:
ND's and other non-scientific practitioners and manufactuers generate fabulous profits while encouraging people to take often completely unknown risks with their health.
Some do and some don't generate fabulous profits. It's common practice, in the US anyway, for people to take advantage of loopholes to make money before the holes are closed.
quote:
If a natural approach to any particular disease or condition is shown to be effective and safe, as many have, then they become part of mainstream medicine. If an herb or procedure is demonstrated to be worthless, it absolutely should be abandoned or made inaccessable. The responsibility for demonstrating safety and efficacy should fall upon the manufacurers, and they should do so before they are permitted to profit.
In a perfect world, yes; but politics and money prevail. Politically it is dangerous to deem something as absolutely worthless and of use to absolutely no one considering there are billions of individuals in the US and we aren't carbon copies.
Remember the FDA's use of safe doesn't mean harmless. It means the benefits outweigh the risks.
An FDA Guide to Dietary Supplements
In contrast, dietary supplement manufacturers that wish to market a new ingredient (that is, an ingredient not marketed in the United States before 1994) have two options. The first involves submitting to FDA, at least 75 days before the product is expected to go on the market, information that supports their conclusion that a new ingredient can reasonably be expected to be safe. Safe means that the new ingredient does not present a significant or unreasonable risk of illness or injury under conditions of use recommended in the product's labeling.
Acupuncture is one CAM treatment that seems to be moving into the mainstream.
Acupuncture Entering the Mainstream
In 1997 a 12-member panel in various mainstream medical disciplines examined the art of acupuncture and found the following.
* Acupuncture is already widely practiced in the United States.
* Though there have been many studies, these provide equivocal results.
* Promising results have emerged for adults with postoperative and chemotherapy-related nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain.
* For addiction, stroke, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel, and asthma, acupuncture may be useful as an additional therapy in a comprehensive management program.
* There are "plausible" ways acupuncture might work -- such as the release of opioids and other substances in the brain that help alleviate the sense of pain when the needles are inserted.
I had also showed earlier that Johns Hopkins found acupuncture useful.
Politics and money. It takes time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 9:03 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-01-2007 1:23 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 103 by molbiogirl, posted 10-01-2007 6:44 PM purpledawn has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 101 of 307 (425242)
10-01-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by purpledawn
10-01-2007 1:02 PM


Re: References and Anecdotes
Acupuncture is one CAM treatment that seems to be moving into the mainstream.
my boss swears by her acupuncturist. she claims that by just holding her hand, said physician knew she'd had a heart problem or some other thing before she'd even read her medical history. i have no idea. it's decreased her migraines, but that could be anything from the change in seasons to using a different soap as far as i'm concerned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 10-01-2007 1:02 PM purpledawn has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 102 of 307 (425317)
10-01-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Kitsune
09-27-2007 2:57 AM


to LindaLou on anonymous internet advice...
Hi LindaLou - Sorry it took a bit to get back to you here. Haven't had time to read the rest of the thread so keep that in mind. I'm not going to argue the beat-to-death anecdote vs. clinical study and bias vs. bigpharma issues, but something jumped out about your response and disturbed me:
LindaLou writes:
Yes, most drugs have side effects. Wouldn't you like to prevent yourself from needing to take any? Try following Buzsaw's regime.
Since you are giving me medical advice, I have to ask you:
Am I male or female?
How old am I?
What drugs am I currently taking?
What supplements am I currently taking?
When was the last time I had a physical?
How often do I exercise?
Do I smoke?
Do I drink alchohol?
Do I use recreational drugs?
What dietary restrictions do I have?
What dietary allergies do I have?
Am I a diabetic?
Am I HIV-positive?
What diseases and conditions have I been diagnosed with?
What is the history of disease in my family?
Am I pregnant?
Etc., etc., etc.?
Can you honestly answer a single one of those questions?
It's always dangerous to dispense medical advice to someone about whom you know absolutely zero. Luckily, I'm intelligent enough to realize that I should regard your advice very critically before following it. The problem is, you are also obviously intelligent, and your impassioned information (and at times misinformation) could persuade the gullible to blindly follow your suggestions.
You are probably correct - many cases of "depression" could likely be helped with dietary changes and exercise plans. That doesn't mean you can broadly dispense a "natural" cure-all for depression, or disparage an entire field of researchers and medical doctors.
I would hate to have the wrong person take a supplement that could interfere with their chemotherapy, or anti-viral meds; or have someone become violent or suicidal because they trade in their antipsychotics for a handful of omega-3's; or have someone avoid traditional medicine or pharmaceuticals entirely.
Sick people are gullible, and scared.
I've heard anecdotes of people foregoing valid colon cancer treatments to give themselves hourly black coffee enemas while the cancer spread throughout their body, because those enemas were supposedly a "natural solution" to cancer that the medical establishment was keeping hidden for financial gain. I've held a human breast with a necrotic (black) tumor on it the size of a baseball, and a human penis with a tumor on it the size of a ping-pong ball, (both owners deceased). Both of the people with those tumors avoided medical treatment because they distrusted doctors, and believed that the people they knew who had tumors and died were killed by the treatment, rather than the cancer.
...a naturopathic approach -- unlikely to do any harm whatsoever...
But such an approach can do harm - you simply don't know. One major way it can cause harm is when people replace necessary traditional intervention with a multivitamin, or supplement traditional medicine with naturopathy with unexpected and unknown epistatic or synergistic effect.
Please be careful in giving advice to complete strangers.
And please realize that, however impassioned you feel about the subject, you are misinformed on many points, you do not hold in your hand the universal cure for depression, and that just maybe the medical establishment is not as evil or stupid as you might think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Kitsune, posted 09-27-2007 2:57 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Kitsune, posted 10-02-2007 3:05 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 103 of 307 (425320)
10-01-2007 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by purpledawn
10-01-2007 1:02 PM


Acupuncture
From the site you mentioned:
http://www.acupuncturecenteraa.com/...ntering_mainstream.pdf
The studies are crappy.
Most systematic reviews of acupuncture have called for higher-quality trials to resolve such inconclusive evidence. Some of the problems encountered with acupuncture RCTs are shared by RCTs in many domains: insufficient sample size, testing in poorly defined illnesses with imprecise outcomes, vague enrollment criteria lead ing to heterogeneous study groups, high dropout rates, and inadequate follow-up. Some of the problems are specifically related to the difficulty in performing RCTs with acupuncture. In RCTs, acupuncturists may have positive expectancy, which is likely to introduce significant bias (64).
For every study that shows "something", there is another study that shows "nothing".
78. Scientific Bases of Acupuncture. New York: Springer-Verlag; 1989.
79. Physiology of acupuncture: review of thirty years of research. J Altern Complement Med. 1997;(Suppl 1):S101-8.
80. Electroacupuncture analgesia in rats: naltrexone antagonism is dependent on previous exposure. Brain Res. 1991;549:47-51.
81. Naloxone fails to reverse pain thresholds elevated by acupuncture: acupuncture analgesia reconsidered. Pain. 1983;16:13-31.
82. Electroacupuncture analgesia is mediated by stereospecific opiate receptors and is reversed by antagonists of type I receptors Life Sci. 1980;26:631-8.
83. Acupuncture and inflammation. International Journal of Chinese Medicine. 1984;1:15-20.
84. Brain substrates activated by electroacupuncture (EA) of different frequencies (II): Role of Fos/Jun proteins in EA-induced transcription of preproenkephalin and preprodynorphin genes. Brain Res Mol Brain Res. 1996;43:167-173
85. Changes of mu opioid receptor binding sites in rat brain following electroacupuncture. Acupunct Electrother Res. 1997;22: 161-6.
They can't tell placebo from "the something" in acupuncture.
An inordinately high placebo effect from acupuncture may complicate detection of any intervention-sham difference (71).
Some of the positive evidence has been published in crap journals (i.e. it wasn't of a high enough quality to be accepted by a reputable journal).
79. Physiology of acupuncture: review of thirty years of research. J Altern Complement Med. 1997;(Suppl 1):S101-8.
85. Changes of mu opioid receptor binding sites in rat brain following electroacupuncture. Acupunct Electrother Res. 1997;22: 161-6.
From the conclusion:
. a substantial body of data showing that acupuncture in the laboratory has measurable and replicable physiologic effects that can begin to offer plausible mechanisms for the presumed actions. Extensive research has shown that acupuncture analgesia may be initiated by stimulation, in the muscles, of high-threshold, small-diameter nerves. These nerves are able to send messages to the spinal cord and then activate the spinal cord, brain stem, and hypothalamic neurons, which, in turn, trigger endogenous opioid mechanisms. These responses include changes in plasma or cortico spinal fluid levels of endogenous opioids (for example, endorphins and enkephalins) or stress-related hormones (for example, adrenocorticotropic hormone) (78). In one study, the effects of acupuncture in one rabbit could be transferred to another rabbit by cerebrospinal fluid transfusions (79). Although questions remain (80, 81), other studies have shown that acupuncture analgesia could be reversed with naloxone (an endorphin antagonist) in a dose-dependent manner (78, 82). Acupuncture may inhibit early-phase vascular permeability, impair leukocyte adherence to vascular endothelium, and suppress exudative reaction to a degree equivalent to that of orally administered aspirin and indomethacin (83). Evidence also supports the possibility that one mechanism of acupuncture may be a form of stimulation for the gene expression of neuropeptides (84, 85).
I would argue (strenuously) that there is not "substantial" evidence, nor is there an "extensive" body of research.
For every study that says "yes" (78, 82) there is a study that says "no" (80, 81).
That's why the best anyone can say of acupuncture research is:
It's inconclusive.
And unlike you, PD, I don't think further studies will reveal acupuncture to have a physical mechanism.
I think further study, with adequate samples and proper procedures, will reveal the placebo effect of acupuncture.
To wit:
*Promising results have emerged for adults with postoperative and chemotherapy-related nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain.
* For addiction, stroke, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel, and asthma, acupuncture may be useful as an additional therapy in a comprehensive management program.
Nausea, vomiting, pain. All relieved by placebo.
You may as well give them a sugar pill and tell them "It's a pain (or nausea) reliever."
It'll work just as well as acupuncture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 10-01-2007 1:02 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by purpledawn, posted 10-01-2007 8:40 PM molbiogirl has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 104 of 307 (425335)
10-01-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by molbiogirl
10-01-2007 6:44 PM


Re: Acupuncture
Aside from the last quote, none of your quotes come from the link I provided.
I was addressing a CAM approach that seems to be moving into the mainstream. I wasn't addressing the effectiveness of acupuncture.
quote:
And unlike you, PD, I don't think further studies will reveal acupuncture to have a physical mechanism.
Again you're assuming a position I haven't claimed.
Since acupuncture is not something that I have had the need to research; I have no response to the studies you provided with no links.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by molbiogirl, posted 10-01-2007 6:44 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by molbiogirl, posted 10-01-2007 10:21 PM purpledawn has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 105 of 307 (425361)
10-01-2007 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by purpledawn
10-01-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Acupuncture
I googled this:
* There are "plausible" ways acupuncture might work -- such as the release of opioids and other substances in the brain that help alleviate the sense of pain when the needles are inserted.
I quoted from the second hit:
Acupuncture: Theory, Efficacy, and Practice
COMPLEMENTARY AND ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE SERIES
Series Editors: David M. Eisenberg, MD, and Ted J. Kaptchuk, OMD
Acupuncture: Theory, Efficacy, and Practice | Annals of Internal Medicine
Turns out, your link was the first hit.
And, if you're going to start this "I didn't say that." business again, I would rather you didn't reply, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by purpledawn, posted 10-01-2007 8:40 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 10-02-2007 7:11 AM molbiogirl has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024