Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What Is A Christian (Remix)
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 133 (425933)
10-04-2007 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by mjfloresta
10-04-2007 3:05 PM


mjfloresta writes:
It's what Jesus said: I am the way, the truth, the life; "No one comes to the Father except through me". How much more un-ambiguous can the text be? How many roads is Jesus allowing for? And how can one be a Christian who denies the only way (means, path, direction..) according to Christ himself???
I've answered all that. You're just repeating yourself, proving what I said about a priori interpretations.
One more try (before we classify you as "mind-closed-tight-as-a-bear-trap").
Jesus said, "I am the way." I = way. Got that?
Jesus said, "No man cometh unto the father but by me. Me = way. Got that?
Simplifying the equation: No man cometh unto the Father but by the way. Got that?
Now, what is the way? Love thy neighbour as thyself. Got that?
It is unambiguous unless you try to make it exclusive.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 3:05 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 133 (425937)
10-04-2007 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
10-04-2007 2:46 PM


When the driver says, "Yes, this is the bus to New Jersey," you'd be the one who's overreaching if you insisted it was the only bus to New Jersey.
Not when the driver says: "This is the bus to New Jersey. There is no other way to New Jersey except on this bus."
quote:
6Jesus answered, "I AM THE WAY and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Its really not totally explicit though. Like you said, the "me" at the end could indirectly be referring to "the way" and not necessarily Jesus, himself. I just don't see it that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 2:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 3:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 3:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 36 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 3:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 133 (425938)
10-04-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
10-04-2007 3:14 PM


No, not regardless of what they believe - regardless of what else they believe.
O I C
So it's not black and white? There's "good Christians" and "not-quite-so-good-Christians" and maybe even a few "bad Christians"? But they're still Christians?
Yup, they're still Christians even if they suck at being one.
Being like Christ doesn't make you a Christian if you aren't a follower of Christ and just happen to be on the same path by coincidence.
Why not?
Because that is not what it means to be a Christian. You have to believe and follow Christ. If you end up on the same path by following another religion, that doesn't automatically make you a Christian. Your still a member of that other religion.
Which is more important? Being on the right path? Or some other Guy in a robe and sandals who happens to be on the same path?
Important to what? Defining the word Christian? Being on the right path is irrelevant to arguing semantics So its very unimportant to this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 3:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 3:54 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 34 of 133 (425939)
10-04-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:35 PM


"This is the bus to New Jersey. There is no other way to New Jersey except on this bus."
Is anyone gullible enough to take the driver's word for that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 35 of 133 (425940)
10-04-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:35 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Not when the driver says: "This is the bus to New Jersey. There is no other way to New Jersey except on this bus."
As I've tried to explain, he didn't say that.
Its really not totally explicit though.
I thought I explicitly said IMplicit.
Like you said, the "me" at the end could indirectly be referring to "the way" and not necessarily Jesus, himself.
It "could" be interpreted either way. Isn't the safer interpretation the less dogmatic one?
If I told you I was a Christian, would you say, "Nuh-uh, you're No True Christian because you put sugar on you porridge don't believe Christianity is the only way"?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:52 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 133 (425941)
10-04-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:35 PM


On the way
I agree with Ringo.
But we are talking several unrelated subjects here.
One is "What is a Christian". That question has absolutely nothing to do with getting to the Father or salvation or Christ-like behavior. It is really simple. What is a Christian.
And if someone is a member of a Christian Church then they are, by definition, a Cristian.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:59 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 133 (425942)
10-04-2007 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
10-04-2007 3:14 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
But if you are honest, you also admit that is without support and simply a belief.
For me, sure.
But I don't rule out the possibility that Jesus could reveal himself directly to a person and allow them to know him.
And I wouldn't speak on behalf of everyone and claim that their belief must be without support, lest they be dishonest.
But it is still only relevant to being a member of the club. It has nothing to do with whether it is true or not.
So?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 3:14 PM jar has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 133 (425943)
10-04-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
10-04-2007 3:44 PM


As I've tried to explain, he didn't say that.
I didn't see your better explanation, the post previous to the one that you replied too, until after I had posted mine.
I understand you explantion/interpretation and it makes sense and is a possibility. Honestly, though, I could read it either way.
Its really not totally explicit though.
I thought I explicitly said IMplicit.
Yes, I was agreeing with you in saying that it really is not explicit.
It "could" be interpreted either way. Isn't the safer interpretation the less dogmatic one?
Hell, I don't know.
If I told you I was a Christian, would you say, "Nuh-uh, you're No True Christian because you don't believe Christianity is the only way"?
No, I wouldn't. But if you said that you were a Christian but you don't believe and follow Jesus. Then I would say Nuh-uh. Or if you said that you don't think that Jesus was God's son. Or if you thought that Jesus never existed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 3:44 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 10-04-2007 4:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 133 (425944)
10-04-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:42 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
You have to believe and follow Christ.
That's what I said. You "believe and follow Christ" by doing what He said, not by joining a club.
If you end up on the same path by following another religion, that doesn't automatically make you a Christian. Your still a member of that other religion.
Why can't a person be a member of another religion and still be a Christian? (And please don't waste any more of my time with that rigid "I am the only way" stuff.)
Important to what? Defining the word Christian?
We're not defining the word "Christian". The OP says:
quote:
In this topic, I wish to discuss the attributes of what makes a Christian a Christian. Message 1
You seem to be saying that what makes a Christian a Christian is what gang colours he wears.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:42 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:10 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 133 (425945)
10-04-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
10-04-2007 3:45 PM


Re: On the way
One is "What is a Christian". That question has absolutely nothing to do with getting to the Father or salvation or Christ-like behavior.
But that is the question that the thread is addressing.
And if someone is a member of a Christian Church then they are, by definition, a Cristian.
That is not the definition that this thread is trying to pin down.
And we've already agreed that being a member is not enough:
quote:
So you define Christian as being a member of a Christian organization regardless of what you believe or how you act.
Well, no! Like any club, Christianity has a Member's Bylaws. Those are laid out in the Primary Creeds. To be a member of the club you need to agree with the bylaws.
The club doesn't make sure that you agree with the bylaws before they accept you into it so you could be in the club and not accept the bylaws.
Being a part of a Christian group is not what makes a True Christian. Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club. But that doesn't make you a Christian as in a follower of Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 3:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 10-04-2007 4:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 42 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 4:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 133 (425946)
10-04-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:59 PM


Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
CatholicScientist writes:
There's got to be some minimum requirements for being a Christian that Christians, in general, can agree on. For one, I'd say that believing in Jesus' divinity is one of those minimum requirements.
Although some believe that while on earth, Jesus was only human.
If God raised Him from the dead, the onus is still Gods power and not Jesus power.
I would say that believing that He is alive today with God is more to the point. But thats just my personal belief.
jar writes:
"The message of Jesus would be valid even if Jesus had only been myth and tales told around the campfire."
Its a different paradigm, though. The exclusivists believe that although Jesus died for everyone, individuals need to accept God (or Jesus) for who He is and not for who they think He is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 56 by petrophysics1, posted 10-04-2007 4:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 133 (425947)
10-04-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:59 PM


Re: On the way
And we've already agreed that being a member is not enough:
No, we have not. Being a member includes abiding by the club rules.
The club doesn't make sure that you agree with the bylaws before they accept you into it so you could be in the club and not accept the bylaws.
Maybe in SOME chapters of the club. But in every Christian Church I have even attended, the rules, the "I believes", are recited at every service.
Being a part of a Christian group is not what makes a True Christian. Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club. But that doesn't make you a Christian as in a follower of Christ.
Yawn.
Sorry but being a follower of Christ, what ever that means, that has NOTHING to do with being a Christian. You even admit in that very same paragraph that "Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club".
Sorry, but if you are in the club by definition you are a True Christian.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:21 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 133 (425948)
10-04-2007 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
10-04-2007 3:54 PM


That's what I said. You "believe and follow Christ" by doing what He said, not by joining a club.
Yes, but if you believe and follow Bob and coincidentally end up on the path Jesus described, then you are not believeing and following Christ, you are believing and following Bob.
You might be very Christ-like, but you aren't a Christian, by definition.
Why can't a person be a member of another religion and still be a Christian?
They can. For example, there are Buddhist-Christians.
I would still consider them Christians. Additional qualifiers don't make you non-christian. Its the lack of the Christian qualifier that makes you non-christian.
We're not defining the word "Christian". The OP says:
quote:
In this topic, I wish to discuss the attributes of what makes a Christian a Christian. Message 1
Meh, same thing.
You seem to be saying that what makes a Christian a Christian is what gang colours he wears.
No. I think it matters what you believe.
Unless you're conflating wearing gang colors with having a belief.
If you believe in Jesus then you're a Christian. If you've failed to follow him well, then you're still a Christian. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you're not a Christian. If you're coincidentally following him, but don't believe in him, then you're not a Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 3:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 4:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 133 (425949)
10-04-2007 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:52 PM


Bylaws
...if you said that you were a Christian but you don't believe and follow Jesus. Then I would say Nuh-uh. Or if you said that you don't think that Jesus was God's son. Or if you thought that Jesus never existed.
I agree with you. Anyone may be able to make it into heaven by doing the good philosophies of the tales told round the campfire, but to be a Christian, you need to relate to Christ IMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:52 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 133 (425951)
10-04-2007 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
10-04-2007 4:11 PM


Re: Bylaws
I agree with you. Anyone may be able to make it into heaven by doing the good philosophies of the tales told round the campfire, but to be a Christian, you need to relate to Christ IMHO.
It really is that simple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 10-04-2007 4:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024