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Author Topic:   Homeopathy
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 1 of 76 (426577)
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


I think homeopathy deserves its own thread.
In the Holistic Medicine thread, Percy said:
Homeopathy believes that substances diluted to the point that there is literally nothing left but water can have a positive therapeutic effect upon the body. A common homeopathic preparation approach is to do a 10:1 dilution 30 times. That means that if the concentration of the original substance was 1 (in other words, it was 100% pure substance), then after 30 10:1 dilutions there is .000000000000000000000000000001 left. If exponential notation is familiar to you, that's 10-30.
You can create your own homeopathic remedies if you're so inclined. If there's a headache medication that works reliably for you (and I do mean reliably - Tylenol doesn't work for me, but aspirin cures my headaches every single time), then the next time you get a headache, take the medication and grind it up into a powder and mix it with 10 ml of pure water. That's the 1st dilution. Now take 1 ml of that mixture, add 10 ml of pure water to it, then mix it thoroughly. Repeat this process 28 more times. Now drink the mixture. Did your headache go away?
Even more important, does it make sense to you that such a dilute mixture of headache medication could have any effect whatsoever on you? That's a rhetorical question, hopefully it seems as ridiculous to you as it does to everyone else.
As to mechanism, the claim of homeopathy is that the water "remembers" the substance it was mixed with, even though the mixture is so dilute that none of the original substance is left. There is no evidence of this, and the claim originates with the originator of homeopathy, who since he died in 1843 could not possibly have had any way to know such a thing even if it were true.
There are those who, despite this evidence, insist that homeopathy works.
I'd like to ask homeopathy's supporters this question:
Is a 30X homeopathic "medication" just water?
If so, how do you suppose it "works"?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Sonne, posted 10-08-2007 12:12 AM molbiogirl has replied
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Sonne
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 2 of 76 (426615)
10-08-2007 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


Hi Molbiogirl,
how do you suppose it "works"?
I don't think you'll find many who can claim to know how it "works", but you will find plenty who claim that it does work. This claim will of course be based on anecdotal "evidence", which seems to be treated the same as proper tested evidence by many people (good examples seen here in recent similar threads). A basic education in just what evidence is (and isn't) would go a long way to solve this issue.
I was administered homeopathy all through my childhood. There was never any question about it not working, but if it didn't seem effective, then that was due to the wrong dose amount, or wrong formula (apis 30 or ledum 30 for stings? Two drops or one?). Such is the way with alternative therapies: the therapy is never wrong, just the application. That's the escape route for practitioners.
Richard Dawkins' "The Enemies of Reason" is worth watching. This features an interview with homeopathist Dr Peter Fisher. Dawkins draws attention to the fact that alternative practitioners such as homeopaths spend a lot of time with their patients, more than regular doctors. And while this doesn't push the efficacy beyond placebo, it does give an insight into it's popularity.
Sonne

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 3 of 76 (426618)
10-08-2007 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Sonne
10-08-2007 12:12 AM


Purpledawn and Lindalou would disagree ...
A basic education in just what evidence is (and isn't) would go a long way to solve this issue.
Unfortunately, that isn't the case.
PD presented 3 papers she found (in the Holistic Medicine thread) that "prove" homeopathy works.
I dissected one of them to show her the study was (badly) flawed.
Didn't make a whit of difference.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 76 (426629)
10-08-2007 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 12:51 AM


Re: Purpledawn and Lindalou would disagree ...
quote:
Didn't make a whit of difference.
What difference were you trying to make concerning my position?
ABE: I do not now, nor have I ever had the position that homeopathy works.
Please do not state or imply otherwise.
Edited by purpledawn, : Position Clarification

This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 5 of 76 (426635)
10-08-2007 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


Homeopathy works!
I'm going to get the quote wrong but Mark Twain once said (something like) "Give a man a reputation as a early riser, he can sleep 'til noon."
Once you establish something in the collective culture, it becomes very hard to dislodge.
Homeopathy still reeps the rewards from its initial successes.
When homeopathy was first introduced in the late 18th century, it was more successful than conventional treatments. That is to say, conventional treatments were so God awful that just _not_ going to the doctor was a step in the right direction.
Homeopathy is literally nothing more than water. But, because it goes a reputation as a successful medicine, it's dug in like a tick.
Sadly, the only thing that'll dislodge it at this point is having some celebrity's child die due to homeopathic neglect followed by a media circus trial and relentless exposes about this pseudo science.

This message is a reply to:
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4301 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 6 of 76 (426639)
10-08-2007 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 12:51 AM


Re: Purpledawn and Lindalou would disagree ...
You'd have to destroy my trust in my ND first, before you made any headway in convincing me of anything here. She's got excellent qualifications in CAM and has helped many people over many years, including me. She never prescribes homeopathic remedies alone; she actually despises "classical homeopathy" as much as a drug-based approach to healing. And she's never prescribed one for me. But if she did, I would try it.
This is what you are facing here: people's personal relationships with those who heal them. Dissecting studies here does not make a whit of difference, you're correct. I know the bias you bring to the dissection and other people may have different but equally valid interpretations.
Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 7 of 76 (426649)
10-08-2007 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


If so, how do you suppose it "works"?
How do I suppose it works? Placebo effect. Which some will claim is equivalent to "it doesn't work"; but it isn't. The Placebo effect is extremely powerful.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 8 of 76 (426655)
10-08-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:15 AM


Lindalou Avoids The Question
LL, answer my question.
Is a 30X homeopathic "medication" just water?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:15 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 76 (426656)
10-08-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


If so, how do you suppose it "works"?
Mr. Jack gave one good response.
Another reason it "works" is confirmation bias: people often, on their own, recover from their illnesses. If one such person just happens to be undergoing homeopathy therapy, then it will appear as if the homeopathy helped. Then we have one person, and that person's close associates, who now have "evidence" that homeopathy works.
Added by edit:
Actually, while I was thinking of confirmation bias, what I actually described was mere coincidence. Confirmation bias would be when one only notices these positive coincidents and doesn't notice the failures of the treatment.
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article. -- Doug Brown (quoted by Carlin Romano in The Chronicle Review)

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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4301 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 10 of 76 (426689)
10-08-2007 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 10:15 AM


Re: Lindalou Avoids The Question
I don't honestly know enough about it to be able to say. If my ND says it works for her patients, I trust her judgement. I've never taken a homeopathic remedy, never really looked into the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 10:15 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 2:47 PM Kitsune has replied
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 11 of 76 (426711)
10-08-2007 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 1:10 PM


Re: Lindalou Avoids The Question
I don't honestly know enough about it to be able to say.
It's simply a matter of math.
Percy was kind enough to show, step by step, how a 30X dilution is made.
You start with a 1:10 dilution and then do another 1:10 dilution 30 times.
So. For example, it you start with 1 ml of "medicine", you add 10 mls of water. Then repeat.
To quote Percy:
...then after 30 10:1 dilutions there is .000000000000000000000000000001 left. If exponential notation is familiar to you, that's 10-30.
Our sun weighs about 2x10^33 Grams; that's about 1x10^57 atoms of hydrogen. That is a 1 followed by 57 zeros.
So. Two atoms of homeopathic "medication" would be in a space the size of our sun.
Does that help you understand how diluted it is?
If not, here's another hint.
Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth.
And the fact that your online ND believes in homeopathy speaks volumes.

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Replies to this message:
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4301 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 12 of 76 (426720)
10-08-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 2:47 PM


Re: Lindalou Avoids The Question
You'd better tell mainstream British doctors that they are quacks too then, because homeopathy as well as acupuncture can be received through the NHS.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Sonne
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 58
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 13 of 76 (426724)
10-08-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
10-08-2007 10:15 AM


Confirmation bias would be when one only notices these positive coincidents and doesn't notice the failures of the treatment.
Ineffective or failed prescriptions are also often viewed as positive. For example a continuation of vomiting, after taking a remedy for its cure, might be due to the remedy fast tracking the ailment/expelling it from the body, etc. And if the remedy did coincide with the ailment subsiding, success! If the ailment becomes worse - that is not an uncommon response with homeopathy, in fact it is a sign of success.
From Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions
Side Effects
Homeopathic remedies rarely have side effects in the usual sense of the phrase because they are so dilute. On the other hand, a homeopathic remedy may sometimes appear to be making a patient's symptoms temporarily worse as part of the healing process. This temporary aggravation of the symptoms would be regarded by homeopaths as an indication that the remedy is effectively stimulating the patient's body to heal itself."
Sonne

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 14 of 76 (426725)
10-08-2007 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 2:47 PM


Re: Lindalou Avoids The Question
molbio,
Indeed, some dilutions go beyond the point where you have less that a 50:50 chance of a single molecule in a "preparation".
It is bollocks of the highest order.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 15 of 76 (426728)
10-08-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:00 PM


Answer the question, Lindalou!
Are you going to continue with this "But they believe it too!" nonsense?
Do you understand that a homeopathic "medication" is nothing but water?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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