Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Homeopathy
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 46 of 76 (426968)
10-09-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by johnfolton
10-09-2007 3:03 AM


Check the video about waters structures multiply and how it relates to homeopathy.
Two things.
First. Couldn't cut it with the "They can distinguish between 2 remedies" schtick, so now you're gonna try the "Water has a memory" thing?
Pick a quack explanation and stick with it!
Second. I need to go to txoptions.com to see a Nobel Prize worthy breakthrough in physics?
Um. I don't think so, buster.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 3:03 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 1:34 PM molbiogirl has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 47 of 76 (426970)
10-09-2007 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
10-09-2007 10:07 AM


Re: It's Chemistry
And if it could, surely all water would have the "memory" of countless substances that once had been dissolved within it, so we should be poisoning ourselves with every glass.
Not only that - but why go out and buy homeopathy bottles? It is almost certain that some of the water that comes out of the tap has had these great homeopathic chemicals near it anyway, filtered through the ground there must be all sorts of wonderful natural homeopathic ingredients in there, by river streams in the sea and in peat bogs.
Heck, at least one molecule in every glass was likely in Jesus at the last supper...homeopathy from the Lord's healing bladder!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2007 10:07 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Fosdick, posted 10-09-2007 10:59 AM Modulous has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 48 of 76 (426977)
10-09-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Modulous
10-09-2007 10:23 AM


Re: It's Chemistry
Mod writes:
Heck, at least one molecule in every glass was likely in Jesus at the last supper...homeopathy from the Lord's healing bladder!
By Jove, I think you've got it! But if the same thing were true about Caesar's bladder, it would have a neutralizing effect on Jesus's pee.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 10-09-2007 10:23 AM Modulous has not replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 49 of 76 (426991)
10-09-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 4:58 PM


Re: It's even worse than you think, Dr. A
Lindalou's ND is an online "doctor"!
She's a practicing neurologist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 4:58 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 2:46 PM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 59 by nator, posted 10-09-2007 8:21 PM Kitsune has not replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 50 of 76 (426997)
10-09-2007 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nator
10-08-2007 9:44 PM


Re: Answer the question, Lindalou!
I'm not going to defend homeopathy here with the same vigour that I've defended things elsewhere, because I agree that it sounds highly improbable. My mind says it's complete nonsense. However, I also trust my ND. Homeopathy is a small part of what she does and she's never prescribed it for me. If she did, I would give her the benefit of the doubt and try it. There's no harm in it, it's not as if I'm hoping it's going to cure my cancer or mend a broken leg.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 10-08-2007 9:44 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 3:00 PM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 60 by nator, posted 10-09-2007 8:36 PM Kitsune has not replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 51 of 76 (427012)
10-09-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by molbiogirl
10-09-2007 10:14 AM


Its been noted that not all waters are equal in nature it has to do with structures found in water.
It appears the founder of homeopathy too me by dilutions created different water structures and it might have nothing to do with the memory thing other than these water structures replicating.
In respect to hunza water even the surface tension has been altered by its believed these water structures. Its not the minerals but the structure of water these little nano crystals it appears what gives homeopathy meaning, etc...
P.S. Its better you believe its nothing cause if people explained to the FDA that nothing is really something they might start regulating homeopathy.
---------------------------------------------
In researching the stability problem, Dr. Flanagan finally discovered tiny minerals shaped like smooth spheres that were only 5 nanometers in diameter and were 2,000 times smaller than a red blood cell and that had a very high electrical potential, called zeta potential.
These minerals - called nano-colloids - disperse throughout the Hunza water with this electrical potential and in interacting at the electrical level with the hydrogen and oxygen molecules that comprise water, they create tiny crystalline structures.
http://www.cybertown.com/slowaging2.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 10:14 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 2:58 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2007 3:11 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 57 by Damouse, posted 10-09-2007 6:36 PM johnfolton has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 52 of 76 (427032)
10-09-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 12:26 PM


She's a practicing neurologist.
Out of curiosity, have you anything other than her word on that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 12:26 PM Kitsune has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 53 of 76 (427041)
10-09-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by johnfolton
10-09-2007 1:34 PM


Reversespin needs to offer evidence in support of his "ideas"
Its been noted that not all waters are equal in nature it has to do with structures found in water.
You need to offer evidence in support of this cockamamie idea.
And by support, I don't mean some loon on the interwebs who thinks he's figured something out that's been missed by the hundreds of thousands of professional physicists.
By support, I mean "from the primary literature" (aka from scientific journals).
Until you provide support, I suggest you refrain from posting the same bare assertions over and over again.
IaJ just got suspended for just that sort of behavior.
Here's what AdminNosy had to say:
When support is presented and it is unsatisfactory that is most often explained. There are a large number of cases where there is no support offered whatsoever. In fact I'd say that "most" is wrong. Only a very few support their assertions with anything other than more assertions. And when they do they get the facts wrong but at least those few do offer some support.
Message 47
P.S. Its better you believe its nothing cause if people explained to the FDA that nothing is really something they might start regulating homeopathy.
Homeopathics were grandfathered in (back in 1938) by a homeopath senator who wrote the FDCA (the legislation that established the FDA).
And we've been pissed off about it ever since.
And we submitted a petition to the FDA 10 years ago:
http://www.quackwatch.org/...omeopetition/homeopetition.html
And the wheels of bureaucracy grind exceedingly slow.
Page Not Found | FDA
FDA regulates homeopathic drugs in several significantly different ways from other drugs. Manufacturers of homeopathic drugs are deferred from submitting new drug applications to FDA. Their products are exempt from good manufacturing practice requirements related to expiration dating and from finished product testing for identity and strength. Homeopathic drugs in solid oral dosage form must have an imprint that identifies the manufacturer and indicates that the drug is homeopathic. The imprint on conventional products, unless specifically exempt, must identify the active ingredient and dosage strength as well as the manufacturer.
They haven't been regulated out of existence (yet) ... but once the FDA requires proof of efficacy, out the door they go!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 1:34 PM johnfolton has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 54 of 76 (427044)
10-09-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 12:33 PM


Online "ND"s
However, I also trust my ND. Homeopathy is a small part of what she does and she's never prescribed it for me. If she did, I would give her the benefit of the doubt and try it. There's no harm in it, it's not as if I'm hoping it's going to cure my cancer or mend a broken leg.
Out of curiosity, would you try anything suggested by this "ND"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 12:33 PM Kitsune has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 76 (427049)
10-09-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by johnfolton
10-09-2007 1:34 PM


Its been noted that not all waters are equal in nature it has to do with structures found in water.
Pure liquid water doesn't form structures, by definition. It's a liquid.
Ice forms structures because it's a solid.
Its not the minerals but the structure of water these little nano crystals it appears what gives homeopathy meaning, etc...
Water doesn't form crystals at room temperature (at standard pressure), the kinetic energy of its molecules are too great to stay in one place for long.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 1:34 PM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 10-09-2007 3:13 PM crashfrog has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 76 (427053)
10-09-2007 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
10-09-2007 3:11 PM


headsup
You do know that reversespin is whatever don't you?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2007 3:11 PM crashfrog has not replied

Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 57 of 76 (427093)
10-09-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by johnfolton
10-09-2007 1:34 PM


Its been noted that not all waters are equal in nature it has to do with structures found in water.
It appears the founder of homeopathy too me by dilutions created different water structures and it might have nothing to do with the memory thing other than these water structures replicating.
In respect to hunza water even the surface tension has been altered by its believed these water structures. Its not the minerals but the structure of water these little nano crystals it appears what gives homeopathy meaning, etc...
I researched the name Rustum Roy, the big name on top of RS's link and found some intersting stuff. I dont profess to be an expert in chemistry so if someone could back me before i jump in feet first thatd be nice.
In his paper for homeopathy, he claims quite a few things that sound like quite a bit of bullroar, among these the ten types of crystalline ice, Van der Waals engery producing spherical water structures, and the ability of water to form "polymers?"
Id argue against it on first instinct but i have little experiance on this topic and im not so sure. If anything, im putting this out as source material for the homeopathic movement.
Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.

This statement is false.
Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 1:34 PM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 7:22 PM Damouse has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 58 of 76 (427103)
10-09-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Damouse
10-09-2007 6:36 PM


In his paper for homeopathy, he claims quite a few things that sound like quite a bit of bullroar, among these the ten types of crystalline ice, Van der Waals engery producing spherical water structures, and the ability of water to form "polymers?"
Jesus christ onna crutch, another geologist. What is with these geologists? First, Lindalou is quoting a geologist as an authoritative source on homeopathy and now this.
I am a biochemist, not a chemist, and even I know that this is a load of horseshit.
Water hydrogen bonds with itself. That is ALL it does.
And those bonds last 170 femtoseconds.
A femtosecond is one billionth of one millionth of a second.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Damouse, posted 10-09-2007 6:36 PM Damouse has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by nator, posted 10-09-2007 8:38 PM molbiogirl has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 76 (427110)
10-09-2007 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 12:26 PM


Re: It's even worse than you think, Dr. A
Seriously, don't you think it is a little irresponsible for a doctor to diagnose you over the internet?
I mean, how does she know if you are having a problem with your adrenal function if she has never done any blood hormone testing?
Have you had any tests of your adrenals, or anything like that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 12:26 PM Kitsune has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 76 (427113)
10-09-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 12:33 PM


selling and prescribing expensive fake cures is unethical
quote:
I'm not going to defend homeopathy here with the same vigour that I've defended things elsewhere, because I agree that it sounds highly improbable. My mind says it's complete nonsense. However, I also trust my ND. Homeopathy is a small part of what she does and she's never prescribed it for me.
Defend? Why would you defend it at all? It deserves your derision and disdain.
It is nonsense, LindaLou. Pure quackery. Worse than snake oil and patent medicines, because at least those had actual ingredients in them, even though they were ineffective and sometimes harmful.
If your ND prescribes homeopatic remedies, she's prescribing quackery.
Why would you trust anything your ND says if she thinks that homeopathy is valid? (I realize that you said that she 'despises traditional homeopathy', but I'm not sure what other kind there is)
It would be like a mainstream MD saying that they think that disease is caused by evil spirits and not germs, or that appendicitis can be cured with psychic surgery. Why would believe anything they say? Why wouldn't you simply back away, smiling and nodding?
quote:
If she did, I would give her the benefit of the doubt and try it. There's no harm in it, it's not as if I'm hoping it's going to cure my cancer or mend a broken leg.
You think that prescribing completely useless, quack remedies is harmless? You think that it is ethical to tell people to purchase sugar pills and distilled water, thus lining the pockets of quack remedy manufactuers? I guess your idea of right and wrong is different than mine.
Now, I'm going to repeat what I said in my last post to you, becasue you have yet to address it but it it is at the cruux of how you argue your position here. You have a very stong double standard, and a profound bias in which you mistrust everything that mainstream medical science does, and pretty much blindly accept everything that isn't in the mainstream.
Remember in the other thread when you agreed with me that those children's cold medicines that were shown to be ineffective should fall out of favor? The scientists studying them determined that the only positive effect was from the placebo effect.
Now, you seem to be making a complete reversal when it comes to homeopathy, even though the reason we are objecting to homeopathic remedies is for the exact same reason; the only possible benefit is from the placebo effect, since there is no active ingredient in the product whatsoever.
Why is it "no big deal" here but not with the other products?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 12:33 PM Kitsune has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024