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Author Topic:   Homeopathy
nator
Member (Idle past 1166 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 76 (427114)
10-09-2007 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by molbiogirl
10-09-2007 7:22 PM


quote:
First, Lindalou is quoting a geologist as an authoritative source on homeopathy and now this.

No, LindaLou cited a retired geologist in support of her rejection of vaccines.


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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 824 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 62 of 76 (427219)
10-10-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


I've found a site called Water Structure and Science that appears to address many of the questions asked here. It looks to be well-referenced. I can't say I understand it all because I am not a chemist, but I am sure others here will have no trouble working all of it out. Would you like to have a look?

Homeopathy

memory of Water


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Percy
Member
Posts: 13418
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 63 of 76 (427228)
10-10-2007 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Kitsune
10-10-2007 1:14 PM


As both your links clearly state, the possibility of any effect from homeopathic medicines is rejected because of the lack of a mechanism. When comparing water to a homeopathic medicine, the most stringent analysis cannot discern which is which, so of course the human body cannot tell the difference, either.

I think it must remain a mystery why so many people, even very intelligent people who publish in prestigious journals, are vulnerable to quackery.

I think most scientists look at the evidence for things like homeopathy, ESP and UFOs and conclude that scientific experiments will never be sufficiently conclusive to convince true believers, but that the hallmark of a phenomenon that truly doesn't exist is that the evidence never improves over time, and that it never provides any insights that make predictions or that would help identify a mechanism. Predictions are a key part of science, and a missing mechanism is the common element in much quackery.

Another way to look at homeopathy is to think about cause and effect. When you take aspirin, we know it contains compounds that have an effect on the body. Even when we understood aspirin less well (and I believe the mechanisms behind its effects are still not well understood), it is quite obvious that aspirin contains something that can have an effect. There are chemicals in aspirin that can actually do things.

A homeopathic remedy has nothing but water. There's nothing in it that could cause anything to happen. If you drank the homeopathic remedy from a glass, it would contain more soap molecules from the last time you washed the glass then it would of the original substance.

Even the submicroscopic effects of quantum theory are detectable to us. That we can detect nothing that could have an effect in homeopathic medicines should be all you need to know. We do not live in a universe where a substance that isn't present can still have an effect.

Is there any such thing as homeopathic foods? Maybe I should start a company to sell homeopathic liquid sugar. It would be very low calorie. I'll just take a teaspoon of sugar, dilute it 10:1 about 30 times, then bottle it up with a nice label and sell it as homeopathic sugar. All the benefits of sugar with none of the calories or negative health effects!

--Percy


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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8595
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 64 of 76 (427240)
10-10-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
10-10-2007 2:04 PM


biodynamic apples
Is there any such thing as homeopathic foods?

I'm not even going to bother googling this but I have friends who buy biodynamic apples. I have a hunch they have been fertilized with the equivalent of homeopathic treatments.


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AdminAsgara
Administrator
Posts: 2032
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 65 of 76 (427245)
10-10-2007 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
10-10-2007 2:04 PM


Wiki on Biodynamic Agriculture

http://www.newstarget.com/012026.html

For Fido and Puss too


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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 824 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 66 of 76 (427692)
10-12-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


This is an interesting bank of resoucres which I'll be reading myself in coming days. It's called the National Center for Homeopathy. If you want, you can scroll down to the Peer Reviewed Journals section.

One reason I've read about why some homeopathy studies fail to show results. It's because they take one remedy at one potency and give it to all the people showing one same symptom. The remedy doesn't work for most and homeopathy is declared quack medicine.

But, the one of the first premises of homeopathy is that you do not treat one symptom, you treat the totality of symptoms. This would lead to choosing several different remedies for these people.

Homeopathy has been given to dogs and infants with good effects, and these are not prone to a placebo effect.

Prescribed well, I'd be happy to try it as an adjunct to other therapies.


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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 619 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 67 of 76 (427703)
10-12-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Kitsune
10-12-2007 12:24 PM


Homeopathy has been given to dogs and infants with good effects, and these are not prone to a placebo effect.

Evidence for this bare assertion being?

TTFN,

WK


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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 704 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 68 of 76 (427726)
10-12-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Kitsune
10-12-2007 12:24 PM


Puh-leez
This is an interesting bank of resoucres which I'll be reading myself in coming days. It's called the National Center for Homeopathy. If you want, you can scroll down to the Peer Reviewed Journals section.

What a load of crap.

More "journals".

Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Homeopathy

BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine

Samueli Institute

Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine

The one reputable study mentioned, Department of Dermatology, Obitsu Sankei Hospital, 1-4 Namikinishi-machi, Kawagoe-city, Saitama-ken 350-0025, Japan, measured only placebo effects.

The effectiveness of individualized homeopathic treatment was measured using the patients' own assessments of seven elements (overall impression, improvement of skin condition, reduction of itchiness, reduction of sleep disturbance, satisfaction in daily life, fulfillment at work and satisfaction in human relations) using a nine-point scale similar to the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital Outcome Scale (GHHOS).

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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 824 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 69 of 76 (427749)
10-12-2007 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by molbiogirl
10-12-2007 3:42 PM


Re: Puh-leez
Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Controlled Trial of Homeopathic Potency with Pollen in Hayfever as Model
D. Reilly, M. Taylor, C. McSherry
18 October 1986

by D. Reilly

Lancet, 881-86.

The double-blind study compared a high dilution homeopathic preparation of grass pollens against a placebo in 144 patients with active hay fever. The study method considered pollen counts, aggravation in symptoms and use of antihistamines and concluded that patients using homeopathy showed greater improvement in symptoms than those on placebo, and that this difference was reflected in a significantly reduced need for antihistamines among the homeopathically treated group. The results confirmed those of the pilot study and demonstrate that homeopathic potencies show effects distinct from those of the placebo.

Is Evidence for Homoeopathy Reproducible?
D. Reilly, M. Taylor, N. Beattie, et al.
10 December 1994

by D. Reilly

Lancet, 344:1601-6.

This study successfully reproduced evidence from two previous double-blinded trials all of which used the same model of homeopathic immunotherapy in inhalant allergy. In this third study, 9 of 11 patients on homeopathic treatment improved compared to only 5 of 13 patients on placebo. The researchers concluded that either homeopathic medicines work or controlled studies don't. Their work has again be recently replicated and is submitted for publication. (See Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Lancet 1986.)

Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua
J. Jacobs, L. Jimenez, S. Gloyd,
01 May 1994

by J. Jacobs

Pediatrics, May 1994, 93,5:719-25.

This study was the first on homeopathy to be published in an American medical journal. The study compared individualized high potency homeopathic preparations against a placebo in 81 children, between ages 6 mo. and 5 yrs., suffering with acute diarrhea. The treatment group benefited from a statistically significant 15% decrease in duration. The authors noted that the clinical significance would extend to decreasing dehydration and postdiarrheal malnutrition and a significant reduction in morbidity.


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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 704 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 70 of 76 (427754)
10-12-2007 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Kitsune
10-12-2007 5:09 PM


Re: Puh-leez
The first study cited is not available online.

From the second study cited:

The test treatments were given as a complement to their unaltered conventional care.

Well. That rather undermines the results, don't you think?

From the third study cited:

Standard treatment with oral rehydration treatment was also given.

What is with this shit?

"Well, we will give a homeopathic and standard treatment and then we will attribute any positive outcomes to the homeopathics."

Get a grip, Lindalou.


This message is a reply to:
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tesla
Member (Idle past 581 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 71 of 76 (456212)
02-16-2008 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-07-2007 6:12 PM


i believe it does work. but the reason why is that the extra water allows the medicine to be absorbed into the blood faster when its mixed with the water.

water soluble medicines and vitamins are more likely to be absorbed if there is sufficient water to absorb it. medicine or vitamins not absorbed pass out into the waste , unused, via natural body processes.

(undigested and unabsorbed materials in your stomach can also cause irritation nausea etc.)

this i why most doctors will tell you to take your medicine with water.

this is how i understand it at any rate.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 704 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 72 of 76 (456215)
02-16-2008 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by tesla
02-16-2008 10:56 AM


Stay out of my thread.

You are not welcome here.


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Modulous
Member
Posts: 6514
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 73 of 76 (456218)
02-16-2008 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by tesla
02-16-2008 10:56 AM


Are you suggesting that homoeopathy vials contain medicine?
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Admin
Director
Posts: 11463
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 74 of 76 (456225)
02-16-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by molbiogirl
02-16-2008 11:25 AM


Please leave moderation to the moderators. This thread is in Coffee House, which is fairly tolerant of mindless blather. If you like I can move this thread to Is It Science?.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 704 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 75 of 76 (456229)
02-16-2008 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Admin
02-16-2008 12:41 PM


Yes, please , Percy.
If you like I can move this thread to Is It Science?.

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