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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
ringo
Member
Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 106 of 337 (424533)
09-27-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by DivineBeginning
09-27-2007 8:20 AM


DivineBeginning writes:

You think being a Christian is easy?

I was responding to what you said in Message 33:

quote:
I happen to have faith in the divine creation of the world we live in. For me, it's easier that way.

You said that it was easier for you.

I simply suggested that we should be teaching our children what's right, not what's easy for us. I quoted Jesus saying the same thing.

As for persecution, it's probably not easy being a Muslim in a Christian majority or a Mormon in a Christian majority or a Jehovah's Witness in a Christian majority. In a country with many minorities, which version of ID would you teach? Could you really teach ID without the Designer looking like your personal God?

In the end, once you've said, "That looks like it was designed," what else can you teach about ID? All you have left is partisan descriptions of what the Designer is like.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 107 of 337 (424545)
09-27-2007 11:50 AM


In any education system, the idea is to teach science in the science class, history in the history class, French in the French class, etc.

I was at in High School in the U.S. for a few years, and that's what you guys used to do, and presumably still do.

So the real question for this thread is "Is I.D. science".

My answer to that would be that, because there is no direct evidence for the intelligent designers, then the I.D. people would have to show very strong indirect evidence for their existence to get started as a science, and that is what they are trying to do.

That means demonstrating that some natural phenomena cannot be produced naturally, within the laws of the universe.

So, far, they haven't done this, so I.D. isn't science.

Decisions on what is and isn't taught in any discipline in any epoch can only be made by the experts in that discipline. The historians decide what the priorities are in history, the geographers in geography, etc.

So, the I.D. scientists should be doing what everyone else with a new hypothesis in science does; trying to convince their peers that they're on to something important.

But they can't do this, because scientists are sticklers for evidence, and they haven't actually got any yet.

But they're religious evangelists, and all such people seem to know instinctively that religions need to indoctrinate young minds in order to survive. So they're trying to skip convincing the scientists, and get in the classrooms.

The funny thing about this is that if I.D. was taught in the classroom, then all science teachers could do is outline the idea, then tell the students that there's absolutely no evidence for it. In other words, no evidence of the existence of a great intelligent designer in the sky.

Which is why it's funny, because that's the last thing evangelical Christians want taught in schools. And that's partly why the smarter Christians don't want anything to do with I.D.

So, I.D. isn't science at this point in time, so it shouldn't be taught in science classes, with one slight exception, which I think I mentioned way back at the beginning of this thread somewhere.

That's when the history of science is being taught. Then, the early nineteenth century William Paley version should certainly be taught.

How else will students understand why Richard Dawkins would entitle one of his books "The Blind Watchmaker", and what the real and important meaning of that (excellent) title is?


Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by anglagard, posted 09-29-2007 4:42 AM bluegenes has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 108 of 337 (424880)
09-29-2007 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by bluegenes
09-27-2007 11:50 AM


The Hammer Has Come Down
Bluegenes writes:

In any education system, the idea is to teach science in the science class, history in the history class, French in the French class, etc.

Looks like that's what they say in the UK according to the curriculum guidelines just unveiled.

quote:
Creationism and intelligent design are not part of the science National Curriculum programmes of study and should not be taught as science.

Full story here: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/09/creationism_in_the_classroom.html

More at the source that guided me to the guidelines: http://www.pandasthumb.org/

Sorry for the rhyming, not in a prose mood. :)


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by bluegenes, posted 09-27-2007 11:50 AM bluegenes has responded

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 109 of 337 (424929)
09-29-2007 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by anglagard
09-29-2007 4:42 AM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Thanks for the links, anglagard. It's not a big issue, here, really. You hardly ever hear about it.

If a significant proportion of U.K. parents were really serious about having their children taught creationism, they could always get off their arses, and go to church once in a while, couldn't they? (5% regularly attend religious services, and if it's Church of England or Catholic, they're not creationists in the sense that we use the word on EvC, anyway).

I think it's funny that the creationist movement has wasted money on what must've been tens of thousands of DVDs.:)

Edited by bluegenes, : bad spelin


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Spektical
Member (Idle past 3755 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 110 of 337 (428516)
10-16-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by bluegenes
09-29-2007 9:35 AM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Just like the Koran, Gita and Torah, the bible's purpose was only to help the social evolution of humans...it should only be studied in a social history class that deals with how human societies evolved.

It is only human-made symbolism.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-16-2007 7:14 PM Spektical has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16015
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 111 of 337 (428567)
10-16-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Spektical
10-16-2007 4:33 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Just like the Koran, Gita and Torah, the bible's purpose was only to help the social evolution of humans...it should only be studied in a social history class that deals with how human societies evolved.

It is only human-made symbolism.

Yes, well, I should point out that if just saying stuff like this convinced people, then we could have finished the whole debate a while back, knocked off early, and gone down the pub.

This isn't much more of a contribution to debate then a fundie posting to say "The Bible is the literal word of God so we're right and you're wrong". (See post #103 for a fine example of the genre.)

That said ... welcome to the forums.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Spektical, posted 10-16-2007 4:33 PM Spektical has responded

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Spektical
Member (Idle past 3755 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 112 of 337 (428757)
10-17-2007 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dr Adequate
10-16-2007 7:14 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
First of all thank you for welcoming me :). Second, I guess teaching ideas like creationism in science class would force the educational system to redefine the scientific process, which is based on hypotheses that are rigorously tested and PROVEN. Now since nothing in the bible can be PROVEN, it would be impossible to test it. This of course implies that the purpose of the bible is to help a person exercise his/her faith muscles. However, faith in what exactly? I cannot blindly have faith in something I can't sense, not to mention my curiosity. How does it account for curiosity?

The religious way of thinking is cyclical and is meant to go nowhere. 'I have to believe in a god because I OWE him my love and I should just leave it at that?' Religion is ONLY a capitalistic tool.

So teaching it in school is equivalent to labotomizing our children for future assembly line livelihoods.

Thank you


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 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-16-2007 7:14 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-17-2007 3:22 PM Spektical has responded
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 10-17-2007 3:46 PM Spektical has not yet responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 113 of 337 (428761)
10-17-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Spektical
10-17-2007 3:07 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Religion is ONLY a capitalistic tool.

clearly it is not since religion predates capitalism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 3:07 PM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 3:29 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 3755 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 114 of 337 (428762)
10-17-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by macaroniandcheese
10-17-2007 3:22 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
By capitalism I meant the invention of money and the exchange of money between people...which is essentially the basis of capitalism. So really capitalism predates religion.

Also wanted to suggest the writings of Gerald Massey and the free film Zeitgeist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-17-2007 3:22 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-17-2007 3:35 PM Spektical has responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 115 of 337 (428763)
10-17-2007 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Spektical
10-17-2007 3:29 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Zeitgeist.

*rolls eyes*

just because something originates from a "skeptical" source doesn't make it any less bullshit.

By capitalism I meant the invention of money and the exchange of money between people...which is essentially the basis of capitalism.

this is a horribly flawed understanding of capitalism. hard currency does not capitalism make.


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 Message 114 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 3:29 PM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 3:50 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 116 of 337 (428766)
10-17-2007 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Spektical
10-17-2007 3:07 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Spektical writes:

Religion is ONLY a capitalistic tool.

I don't know if I'd emphasize "only" :) but I tend to agree. I've suggested in other threads that the original purpose of the levitical law was to provide a reliable food source for the priests. There may be some innate "need" for the spiritual in humans but religion per se is about the exploitation of that need.

Similarly, the religion of creationism/ID is an exploitation of the human need to know. You can get "knowledge" to rival the best scientists in exchange for cash - and watching a video is a lot quicker than getting a degree.

If we're going to teach ID in schools, we might as well teach every other get-rich-quick scam while we're at it.

Edited by Ringo, : Speling.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 3:07 PM Spektical has not yet responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 3755 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 117 of 337 (428769)
10-17-2007 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by macaroniandcheese
10-17-2007 3:35 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Why are you rolling your eyes re: zeitgeist...the movie is not completely accurate but its a good starting point to more accurate data/studies ie. gerald Massey.

If you think hard enough about the logic of religion, you'll notice that its nothing more than a catch 22 sales pitch.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-17-2007 3:35 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-17-2007 4:02 PM Spektical has responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 118 of 337 (428776)
10-17-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Spektical
10-17-2007 3:50 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
its a good starting point to more accurate data/studies ie. gerald Massey.

or you could skip all the crap and learn about actual science.

If you think hard enough about the

if you think hard enough about anything, it starts to become a sammich. all philosophy has the same bullshit potential; it's just the flavor of the week.

also, massey was a druid. oh, that's the height of reason.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 3:50 PM Spektical has responded

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 Message 119 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 4:14 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 3755 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 119 of 337 (428783)
10-17-2007 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by macaroniandcheese
10-17-2007 4:02 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Well you're definitely making me clarify myself :). What I meant by 'think hard' was just research.

And sure it is the flavour of the week....its not meant to be a permanent message anyways...just a means to help get humanity through a transitional period of self realization.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-17-2007 4:02 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-17-2007 4:18 PM Spektical has responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 120 of 337 (428786)
10-17-2007 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Spektical
10-17-2007 4:14 PM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
"humanity" is doing just fine without internet crap videos.

also, i believe that period was called "the enlightenment" and happened a hundred years ago. we've moved on, why haven't you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 4:14 PM Spektical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Spektical, posted 10-17-2007 4:25 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
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