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Author Topic:   Good Scientists Gone Bad -- Dr. Watson and Dr. Pauling
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 1 of 161 (428820)
10-17-2007 6:02 PM


Dr. Pauling and his wacky vitamin C theories.
Now Dr. Watson and his wacky IQ theories.
http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece
James Watson has really put his foot in it this time. He has a tendency to say some shockingly offensive and bizarre things.
Dr Watson told The Sunday Times that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really". He said there was a natural desire that all human beings should be equal but "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".
His views are also reflected in a book published next week, in which he writes: "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece
In 1997, he told a British newspaper that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual. He later insisted he was talking about a "hypothetical" choice which could never be applied. He has also suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, positing the theory that black people have higher libidos, and argued in favour of genetic screening and engineering on the basis that "stupidity" could one day be cured. He has claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would great."
Double helix trouble | Higher education | The Guardian
He smiles. "Rosalind (Franklin) is my cross," he says slowly. "I'll bear it. I think she was partially autistic." He pauses for a while, before repeating the suggestion, as if to make it clear that this is no off-the-cuff insult, but a considered diagnosis. "I'd never really thought of scientists as autistic until this whole business of high-intelligence autism came up. There is probably no other explanation for Rosalind's behaviour.
Thanks to Pharyngula for the heads up on all 3 examples.
Page not found | ScienceBlogs

Replies to this message:
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 Message 85 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 10-20-2007 3:41 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 161 (428854)
10-17-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-17-2007 6:02 PM


"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
Is there even any reason to believe that the various "races" have at all been reproductively isolated for any significant period of time? It seems that all through history people have been traveling and trading between disparate civilizations, it's hard to believe that gene flow had ever been completely interrupted for more than a mere few generations.
Sigh. My guess is that we're looking at another John Davison situation. The Bell Curve strikes again. (I've always found it partially hilarious that Charles Murray wrote a book about how Jews are smart and non-whites are dumb right after he divorced a Thai woman and married a Jew.)

This message is a reply to:
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Damouse
Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 3 of 161 (428863)
10-17-2007 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-17-2007 6:02 PM


I laugh and i cringe at the same time.
Just out of curiousity, how is IQ determined? Is the uneducated man going to score less than the educated?

This statement is false.
Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 161 (428871)
10-17-2007 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Damouse
10-17-2007 10:24 PM


Is the uneducated man going to score less than the educated?
Sadly, yes. This is due to bias in the tests. There was a thread that had a major discussion on IQ a while back ... see Message 153
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 161 (428986)
10-18-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
10-17-2007 8:46 PM


"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
Is there even any reason to believe that the various "races" have at all been reproductively isolated for any significant period of time?
He said "geographically separated in their evolution" not "reproductively isolated". Two populations could diverge significantly without being totally genetically isolated, no?

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Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5522 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 6 of 161 (428987)
10-18-2007 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
10-17-2007 6:02 PM


Huh?
So what's the OP question?

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 161 (429066)
10-18-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
10-18-2007 10:20 AM


He said "geographically separated in their evolution" not "reproductively isolated".
Reproductive isolation is what you would have to have, though. Otherwise gene flow would tend to equalize differences between even geographically disparate populations.
I assumed that he was just implying reproductive isolation from geographic isolation as a kind of shorthand. There'd be no relevance to geographic isolation, otherwise.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 161 (429070)
10-18-2007 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
10-18-2007 10:20 AM


I can think of a couple of points to make.
Firstly, unless a continent is largely isolated by geographical barriers it's just silly to use continents as the basis for grouping populations. It might work for the Americas pre-Columbus but surely not for Africa. Why group Ethiopia with South Africa rather than Egypt ?
Secondly, if there is gene flow, traits can and will flow between populations, Advantageous traits will tend to spread. You would need selective pressures - not just distance - to be even reasonably sure that a trait would not be found elsewhere. Intelligence seems to be generally useful (to humans) so I would expect it to be positively selected in almost all populations.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 161 (429076)
10-18-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
10-18-2007 2:12 PM


Otherwise gene flow would tend to equalize differences between even geographically disparate populations.
It would tend to but if the flow was low and the pressure high, then it would be negligible.
There'd be no relevance to geographic isolation, otherwise.
The relevance is that it would allw for the development of "races" with them really being totally isolated.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 161 (429080)
10-18-2007 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
10-18-2007 2:25 PM


Secondly, if there is gene flow, traits can and will flow between populations, Advantageous traits will tend to spread. You would need selective pressures - not just distance - to be even reasonably sure that a trait would not be found elsewhere.
The trait could still be found but just be less promenent. Plus, if the gene flow was negligible, then divergence could be expected.
Intelligence seems to be generally useful (to humans) so I would expect it to be positively selected in almost all populations.
But if one group had less to select from and was geographically isolated, although not totally genetically isolated, then we could exect one group to end up with more intellegence to select for, and thus more intellegence in general.
Just because gene flow happens on a minute level does not mean that the genes suddenly become homogeneous. The flow was probably negligible.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 11 of 161 (429087)
10-18-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
10-18-2007 2:48 PM


I wouldn't say that the gene flow between North Africa and Europe and the Middle East was that small. Which goes back to the arbitrary nature of the geographical borders chosen.
And I should add that we have no good reason for expecting a trait for higher intelligence to appear in Europe or Asia rather than Africa. And even if it did we would expect it to eventually spread - it's just a matter of time.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 161 (429090)
10-18-2007 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
10-18-2007 3:02 PM


I wouldn't say that the gene flow between North Africa and Europe and the Middle East was that small.
Compared to within those populations?
We don't really know do we? Its a matter of speculation. I think it was probably negligible because of the morphological differences that are obvious.
Which goes back to the arbitrary nature of the geographical borders chosen.
The geographical bordes as the continents IS pretty arbitrary in my opinion too. But the populations were seperate, and they were seperate by geography (but not just), so there is some boundary.
And I should add that we have no good reason for expecting a trait for higher intelligence to appear in Europe or Asia rather than Africa.
Well, if Europeans and Asians are more intellegent than Africans we would.
And even if it did we would expect it to eventually spread - it's just a matter of time.
Assuming we do, it hasn't happened yet then.

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 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 10-18-2007 3:02 PM PaulK has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 13 of 161 (429095)
10-18-2007 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
10-18-2007 3:10 PM


quote:
Compared to within those populations?
We don't really know do we? Its a matter of speculation. I think it was probably negligible because of the morphological differences that are obvious.
What about the morphological differences within Africa ? Which seem to be rather more impressive. And gene flow can be countered by selection. Even if there is no negative selection drift is far slower than positive selection.
quote:
Well, if Europeans and Asians are more intellegent than Africans we would.
Well that would need to be established first. You can't reason backward from the possibility of differing traits to the conclusion that there is a specific difference. Especially when it doesn't seem a very likely possibility.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-18-2007 3:42 PM PaulK has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 14 of 161 (429100)
10-18-2007 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
10-18-2007 2:12 PM


We already know that different racial groupings have different genes. Otherwise every country in the world would have the same mixture of facial structures, skin colours, eye colours and hair colours and types. It is not unreasonable to assume that there are other less immediately obvious genetic differences.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 15 of 161 (429103)
10-18-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
10-18-2007 3:27 PM


Well that would need to be established first. You can't reason backward from the possibility of differing traits to the conclusion that there is a specific difference. Especially when it doesn't seem a very likely possibility.
Well, studies of IQ do show such differences. The current consensus view is that these differences are better explained by environmental factors and cultural bias in the testing than by genetic differences. This is supported by the sharp difference exhibited between African Americans and their presumably genetically comparable counterparts in Africa.
Edited by Mr Jack, : Added point about cultural bias.

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