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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
jar
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Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


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Message 136 of 337 (431117)
10-29-2007 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Beretta
10-29-2007 12:22 PM


Re: New member is confused
Creationists are not just welcomed, they are sought after. The hope is that one day a Creationist of Type 2b will actually be found who can present a Creationist Model that explains what is seen as well as the current models. Unfortunately, no such Creationist has ever been found.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Beretta, posted 10-29-2007 12:22 PM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 3:01 AM jar has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1830 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 137 of 337 (431118)
10-29-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Beretta
10-29-2007 12:22 PM


Re: New member is confused
I think there is an environment here on this site that is not the most cordial to creationists because in the science forums, moderators will activly pressure the participants to present evidence and to move the discussion forward.

This is unlike other sites that simply allow free-for-all type discussions.

This is a paradigm that has proven frustrating for creationists and others. Recently there was someone who left feeling frustrated about being unable to support her belief in alternative medicine. Even evolutionsts have left some discussion frustrated when they did not have evidence to support their ideas. I think one had to do with a discussion about bigfoot.

I think the key here is that this site is dedicated to allowing creationists and IDers to step up to the plate. Many time creationists and IDers claim that they HAVE evidence for their views and that their views are scientific. Here at this forum, those claims come under very close scrutiny.

That being said, this forum is also home to many people who are incredibly knowledgable in various fields in both science and religion.

There are still a number of creationist or ID members although they don't seem to want to post in science forums on primary topics related to EvC for some reason.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Beretta, posted 10-29-2007 12:22 PM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 3:16 AM Jazzns has responded

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 138 of 337 (431233)
10-30-2007 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
10-29-2007 12:34 PM


Re: New member is confused
Well I'm not great on discussion forums having never participated before and not being quite sure how to get around though these things usually become rapidly self-evident. In any case to state my position -I was an evolutionist until around April last year when for the first time I was shown evidence for creation that I had never been aware of. I was shocked to say the least and began to investigate. It took a few months of avid reading before I was prepared to come out and admit that I no longer believed in evolution since it seemed such a ridiculous possibility considering how the whole world appeared to believe it . This stand was met with mostly hostility as if by my stand I had completely destroyed the holy grail. I found the reactions every bit as radical as Muslims, Roman Catholics etc being given evidence against what they believed. Though it was difficult to defend in the beginning -I find it easier and easier in a civilized environment; every conversation I have with evolutionists just adds to my information on the subject as I don't pretend to know everything and enjoy doing the research to inform myself. Anyway I might as well give it a go here and see what everyone has to say.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-29-2007 12:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2007 3:28 AM Beretta has responded
 Message 142 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2007 3:39 AM Beretta has responded
 Message 158 by jar, posted 10-30-2007 3:11 PM Beretta has responded

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 139 of 337 (431234)
10-30-2007 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Jazzns
10-29-2007 12:35 PM


Re: New member is confused
Oh well, I'll sure give it a go -if I manage to find my way around!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Jazzns, posted 10-29-2007 12:35 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Jazzns, posted 10-30-2007 10:55 AM Beretta has responded

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 140 of 337 (431235)
10-30-2007 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Chiroptera
10-29-2007 12:33 PM


Re: New member is confused
Evolutionists are not too keen on their myths being questioned either but anyway I'll see what the topics are and whether they compel me to put my foot in it. Thanks for the reply.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Chiroptera, posted 10-29-2007 12:33 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by arachnophilia, posted 11-02-2007 2:50 AM Beretta has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14406
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 141 of 337 (431237)
10-30-2007 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Beretta
10-30-2007 3:01 AM


Re: New member is confused
I think that you will find that the "evidence" you have been shown will turn out to be misinformation. Creationist sources are notoriously unreliable and dishonest.

Nevertheless if you can manage to keep a productive attitude towards discussion you might be able to fit in here. (I just don't think that you will remain a creationist very long :-)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 3:01 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 7:07 AM PaulK has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 142 of 337 (431238)
10-30-2007 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Beretta
10-30-2007 3:01 AM


Re: New member is confused
Well I'm not great on discussion forums having never participated before and not being quite sure how to get around though these things usually become rapidly self-evident. In any case to state my position -I was an evolutionist until around April last year when for the first time I was shown evidence for creation that I had never been aware of.

Ah, you "were an evolutionist", were you?

Please, in your own words, state the theory of evolution.

This should be no problem for a former evolutionist like yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 3:01 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 7:37 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 143 of 337 (431241)
10-30-2007 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Beretta
10-29-2007 12:22 PM


Re: New member is confused
Maybe I haven't read enough but I've just joined the site and all I see is evolutionists agreeing with evolutionists. Are there no creationists on this site or have they all been chased away??? Maybe I haven't read enough but I've just joined the site and all I see is evolutionists agreeing with evolutionists. Are there no creationists on this site or have they all been chased away???

So, let's see. You've made up in your head a lot of stupid bullshit about the content of this site.

Then you decided to drool out this nonsense in front of the people best qualified to know that you're talking bullshit, i.e. the people who participate on this site.

Let me guess ... you're a creationist, yes?

You're not just reciting falsehoods, you're doing it in the one place where you are most likely to be caught out.

I shall never really understand you people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Beretta, posted 10-29-2007 12:22 PM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 7:53 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 144 of 337 (431252)
10-30-2007 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
10-30-2007 3:28 AM


Re: New member is confused
Oh well give this your best shot - what is it that most convinces you that evolution is true -sorry just have to ask -it always interests me to know this whenever I meet an evolutionist. Most people seem to be just generally impressed by a plausible story and don't know much about what they believe at all - I sense I may get some more enteresting answers on this site.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2007 3:28 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2007 7:44 AM Beretta has responded
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2007 8:42 AM Beretta has responded

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 145 of 337 (431253)
10-30-2007 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Dr Adequate
10-30-2007 3:39 AM


Re: New member is confused
Well lets just put it this way -I was an evolutionist in the sense that everybody is an evolutionist or so I thought. Learned it at school and beyond -never doubted it, never considered or realized that there was doubt out there -after all scientists are dedicated professionals with no bias at all -so I thought until I realized that everyone has a bias.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2007 3:39 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19565
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 146 of 337 (431255)
10-30-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Beretta
10-30-2007 7:07 AM


several things
what is it that most convinces you that evolution is true

Several things.

The most convincing is probably the fact that evolution occurs every day, in every species known, that there is no species on earth where evolution - the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation - does not occur.

I sense I may get some more enteresting answers on this site.

It's possible you may also learn something about reality, what evolution really is and how we can apply it to the evidence of evolution in the past.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 7:07 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 8:25 AM RAZD has responded

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 147 of 337 (431258)
10-30-2007 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
10-30-2007 4:04 AM


Re: New member is confused
'So, let's see. You've made up in your head a lot of stupid bullshit about the content of this site."

No actually I have not made up my mind about anything in this site but you seem to have made your mind up about what I think and I have not drooled anything out as far as I can recall.

I think creationists make more sense of the evidence, yes in that sense I suppose I support creation at this point. Evolutionists tend to push their beliefs very aggressively though I have not found them particularly convincing. When I supported evolution, I did so only as a result of conditioning -never really questioned the paradigm, now I question it continually.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2007 4:04 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Modulous, posted 10-30-2007 12:42 PM Beretta has responded

  
Beretta
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 148 of 337 (431267)
10-30-2007 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by RAZD
10-30-2007 7:44 AM


Re: several things
The problem is that you are speaking of genetic variations not macroevolutionary changes which we never see so in fact evolution is not occurring every day before our eyes. Evolutionists extrapolate that variability and adaptation to the assumption that macroevolution has occurred and is still occurring. The whole thing goes back to "we're here, there is no God, so it must be what happened" -it's called a plausible story but requires much faith in something not observable by the scientific method.I suppose I'm off the topic of this section but anyway -there it is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2007 7:44 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Admin, posted 10-30-2007 9:10 AM Beretta has responded
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2007 3:26 PM Beretta has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14406
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 149 of 337 (431270)
10-30-2007 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Beretta
10-30-2007 7:07 AM


Re: New member is confused
It's off-topic to go into a major discussion here, but to list some of the points.

The twin nested hierarchy(see ongoing thread)

The many transitional fossils that have been found.

The known examples of speciation

The existence of ring species

The absence of any clear, hard boundaries that would suggest seperate origins for any group of life forms found currently.

And that's just examples for evolution, without including the many things that some creationists tend to lump together as "evolution" (like geology, dating, cosmology...)

Anyway since you claim to have these killer arguments against evolution why don't you actually start a thread to discuss them ? But don't be surprised if they are shot down in short order. As I said you have almost certainly been badly misinformed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 7:07 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 10:02 AM PaulK has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12557
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 150 of 337 (431278)
10-30-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Beretta
10-30-2007 8:25 AM


Re: several things
Hi Beretta,

Yes, you're off-topic, but if you'd like to discuss with others why they accept evolution then just propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 8:25 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
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