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Author Topic:   Pascal's Wager - Any Way to Live a Life
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 126 (432966)
11-09-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
11-09-2007 6:18 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
Phat writes:
quote:
"God helps those who help themselves"
Actually you won't find this phrase or anything like it in the Bible.
Off topic here, I suppose, but that might make an interesting topic: Things That People Believe Are In The Bible That Make More Sense Than What's REALLY In The Bible.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 126 (432967)
11-09-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
11-09-2007 6:18 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
Actually you won't find this phrase or anything like it in the Bible.
So, what does that tell you 'bout the Bible, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 11-09-2007 6:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-09-2007 4:56 PM Jon has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 33 of 126 (433023)
11-09-2007 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
11-09-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
quote:
quote:
"God helps those who help themselves"
Actually you won't find this phrase or anything like it in the Bible.
Actually this is but a Christian paraphrasing gf the ancient Greek saying : " — ". i.e. "the Goddess will move her hand after you've moved yours"

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 34 of 126 (433035)
11-09-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
11-08-2007 6:35 PM


Willing oneself to believe
Phat writes:
I still swear to this day that there was one day that I became aware of a presence which has never left me since that time, even though I don't always feel confirmation via tactile perceptions.... For me, none of this is a bet.
Consider yourself fortunate.
Phat writes:
I also admit that there was and is a lot of peer pressure within my circle to believe, going to Church and all.
Isn't it funny how peer pressure works in multiple ways? There are other circles pressuring the other way.
I have been embedded in that Church going circle before when I lived with by brother. Going to "meetings" was not an option but a requirement. The only thing is that the meetings (church) were really just a device for someone to talk a lot about the coming end-time with a captive audience that ate it up like it was wisdom and not the manifestation of a depressed psychology that is was.
Phat writes:
The decision was settled based on my will. People decide to believe or not. Its as simple as that.
This is where I strongly disagree. I am with Archer on this, one cannot decide or will oneself to genuinely believe.
The mind believes in something because of:
1) A preponderance of evidence
2) A desire to quell some strong personal anguish
Beliefs based on the latter often lead to intellectual dishonesty and overshadow the former.
I will grant you that evidence may be objective, subjective or even subconscious. In your case, it was some personal experience in others it maybe some answered prayer or an unlikely set of coincidences, etc. However, I suspect that many of the subjective evidences go unexamined and suffer from confirmation bias as the result of a self-centric world-view.
Pascal's Wager is often trotted out as a reason to believe to overcome the lack of evidence and hence leads to intellectual dishonesty. Pascal's Wager is really stressing the threat side of a chain-letter theology ( Message 1 ) and providing a possible solution to comfort the anguish of hell.
As an aside I believe that a life lived authentically, courageously and honestly and with reverence to life is in itself a form worship to the creator, if indeed there is one.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-08-2007 6:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 126 (433038)
11-09-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
11-09-2007 11:25 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
quote:
Actually you won't find this phrase or anything like it in the Bible.
Jonnachi of Alexandria writes:
So, what does that tell you 'bout the Bible, eh?
What should it tell me?
I have always believed that God helps those who trust in Him with all their heart and lean not on their own understanding.
I admit that this is exclusivist, however!
Perhaps a compromise is in order. Its a bit of both....Faith and Good Works.

Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 11-09-2007 11:25 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 36 of 126 (433051)
11-09-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
11-09-2007 4:56 PM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
quote:
I have always believed that God helps those who trust in Him with all their heart and lean not on their own understanding.
So....
God helps people who make efforts to avoid using their intelligence?
God likes the ignorant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 11-09-2007 4:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 37 of 126 (433084)
11-09-2007 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Archer Opteryx
11-09-2007 5:20 AM


Re: you bet
Archer Opterix:
quote:
Was brain activity being monitored as subjects were speaking? You don't tell us.
That's because the experimental references have already been made in another thread. I'm sorry I didn't go look it up, but I assumed you were just as capable of using PubMed as I am.
quote:
Any idea where I might find these writeups?
Yeah. PubMed. You do know of PubMed, don't you? And if not, try Google. And if that doesn't work, search here since they've already been referenced here.
I'm not going to do your homework for you.
quote:
All I have right now, going from your post, is beliefs, memories, and scientists.
No, you have more than that. You've been told that the studies were previously referenced here. Did you bother searching here?
quote:
I am asking what criteria researchers used in conducting a scientific study. It's a fair question.
Indeed, it is.
Go look it up. Why are you trying to make me do your homework?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-09-2007 5:20 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 38 of 126 (433086)
11-09-2007 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
11-09-2007 6:18 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
Phat responds to me:
quote:
Actually you won't find this phrase or anything like it in the Bible.
True, that was Ben Franklin.
What if he was right....

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 11-09-2007 6:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 39 of 126 (433087)
11-09-2007 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-09-2007 11:24 AM


Jon responds to me:
quote:
quote:
And which one is that? Be specific.
The only One. There cannot be more than One.
Says who? You? Why should we believe you? It would seem the Celestial Bureaucracy would beg to differ with you.
quote:
quote:
Be aware that there are others who are just as sure that your choice is wrong
Let them be.
But you're the one insisting. Therefore, you just justify your claims.
quote:
quote:
and their evidence is just as strong as yours.
Doubtf'lly so.
Says who? You? Why should we believe you? The vast majority of the world thinks you're wrong. Why should we choose your minority opinion?
quote:
quote:
Thinking you understand god's intentions.
I needn't understand God's intentions, merely Its nature
But that's precisely the fallacy: What on earth makes you think you understand god's nature?
Who died and made you god?
quote:
which is, in the general, discernable via logic.
Why? When was it shown that god was rational, sane, and logical?
You're assuming you understand god.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-09-2007 11:24 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 40 of 126 (433090)
11-09-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iceage
11-09-2007 4:26 PM


Re: Willing oneself to believe
iceage writes:
quote:
I am with Archer on this, one cannot decide or will oneself to genuinely believe.
And yet, all of psychology says the exact opposite. It is very easy to get people to genuinely believe.
quote:
The mind believes in something because of:
1) A preponderance of evidence
2) A desire to quell some strong personal anguish
Beliefs based on the latter often lead to intellectual dishonesty and overshadow the former.
Why? Have you completely forgotten about the "false memory syndrome"? You can convince people that they were horrendously raped and participated on terrifying murders of people and yet, when you show them that it could never, ever have happened, they adamantly point out that you're wrong.
What do you think the McMartin case was predicated upon?
quote:
I believe that a life lived authentically, courageously and honestly and with reverence to life is in itself a form worship to the creator, if indeed there is one.
But what if god doesn't? That's one of the many fallacies of the wager: Assuming you understand god.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 126 (433137)
11-10-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rrhain
11-09-2007 2:57 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
Since when did you become the chosen one who knows the mind of the god that truly exists?
The day we met.
You didn't really think it was the Christian one, did you?
YHWH, HaShem, Adonai, El Shaddai, Yeshua... If that's the Christian God, then yes.
Oh, such faith you have that the god that truly exists is the Christian one. How surprised you will be when you find out that you've been a very bad boy.
Maybe. But if it is a wager, I'll take that bet and raise you your soul.
quote:
For the atheist its a win-loss situation.
Unless, of course, god rewards those who think for themselves. Isn't that one of those catchphrases in your book? "God helps those who help themselves"? Perhaps that was a hint to put the book down.
Actually, no, it doesn't. There is no scriptural support for it. Its a phrase coined by Ben Franklin that for someone reason persists.
You've fallen for the same fallacy that Pascal did:
Thinking that it's your god that truly exists.
Everyone that believes something should have some kind of reason for believing. It doesn't necessarily make it so, it doesn't necessarily make it false. But in terms of wager, he feels that taking the bet is the safer option.
Obviously, that is not how salvation works, according to His God. Much of Pascal's Wager suffers from a terminal banality
what makes you think that you've managed to find the right ones?
Its not something you could know empirically 100%. But its like when you meet the right girl. When you know, you know, but you don't know.
Even if you do everything that a "good Christian" must do, you're still nowhere near being in a good position for by being a "good Christian," it is just as likely that you have made yourself abomination in the eyes of the god that truly exists.
The whole point of Christendom is that you can't be a good boy on your own without coming to the realization that you require mercy.
quote:
In other words, you can't buy your "fire's insurance" just in case this whole God thing really is true. That's not how it works.
Says who?
God... I've got Him on the line... He says He wants you to stop being an angry, antagonsitic atheist and just collapse before His saving grace. He wants you to know that He loves you, but He's disappointed. Since He bestowed on you a freewill, you have to ask for Him.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : No reason given.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 126 (433145)
11-10-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
11-10-2007 10:33 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
God... I've got Him on the line
That's so precious. Of course, the rest of us have reason to believe that you're just talking to yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-10-2007 10:33 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-10-2007 12:17 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 126 (433158)
11-10-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
11-10-2007 11:25 AM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
That's so precious. Of course, the rest of us have reason to believe that you're just talking to yourself.
I know the difference between a monologue and a dialogue.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 126 (433164)
11-10-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Hyroglyphx
11-10-2007 12:17 PM


Re: Clarification of Pascals infamous Wager
I know the difference between a monologue and a dialogue.
I thought I did, too, until I realized I was talking to myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-10-2007 12:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 45 of 126 (433213)
11-10-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Hyroglyphx
11-08-2007 8:59 PM


Nazi Death Camp Guard God
NJ writes:
But if you wager against God, you run the risk of perdition.
Nahhh it is not a wager against God. It is only a wager that God is not akin to a Nazi death camp guard sitting at the gates of heaven with a thumbs up or down for arriving souls. This really is the vision of the Christian God.
In other words...
  • Refusing to believe in a god due to the lack of evidence is only a wager that God is not a cruel unjust spiteful revenge driven sadist.
  • Believing in a god (as means of saving your ego) without sufficient evidence is a wager that God is indeed a cruel unjust spiteful revenge driven sadist.
    NJ writes:
    For the Christian its a win-win situation. For the atheist its a win-loss situation.
    You are considering too small a range of possibilities.
    What about the possibility that those who do not believe in superstitions go to heaven to be with God and superstition believers go to hell? Now for the atheist it is a win and for you a loss.
    Maybe there is more meaning in the passage "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it" then is given credit.
    NJ writes:
    The problem with the argument is that its prefaced upon a false dichotomy.
    Ah so you do realize it is a false dichotomy so why would you make the above statement which framed the false dichotomy?
    NJ writes:
    There is ample justification to believe that not all theistic beliefs will save you. Also, if you are a Christian, simply believing that God exists does not constitute salvation.
    There is as much "ample justification to believe that not all theistic beliefs will save you" as there is justification that having _no_ theistic beliefs will save you.
    Actually I would say the justification is weighted towards the possibility that _no_ theistic beliefs will save you as those beliefs tend to be more uniform while theistic beliefs are all over the map. It would surely make the selection processing more straight forward
    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

  • This message is a reply to:
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