Rapture (pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib) ?

Phat,We do not cosider that Witness Lee and Watchman Nee founded a church. But I have met on the ground of locality with churches who receive the ministry of Lee and Nee for many years.I know what you mean. And my answer is yes as long as you are clear that Lee or Nee did not found a church other than the church which Christ said He would build. They did minister to open the eyes of Christians in the denominations and free groups to RETURN to the proper ground of the local unity as the New Testament prescribes.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Let us soberly consider what the Bible says about the marriage feast of Christ. It is not a matter lost in translation really. It is a logical matter when considering the crucial passages:Fact # 1. The marriage feast of Christ begins to occur after Christ has left heaven and descended to the earth. [b]See Revelation 19:7-9 and 11-14. See Matthew 25:1-13.Fact # 2. Those who accompany Him to the feast are either the "wise" among the disciples or the "faithful". The parable immediately AFTER the teaching of the ten virgins concerns the faithfulness required by Christ's servants to be ready for His second coming (Matthew 25:14-30) Matthew 25:1-13 teaches us in a parable the wiseness as opposed to the foolishness of those who await the second coming of Christ. The foolish ones do not attend the wedding feast. It does not say that they perish or are damned. It does not go that far. However, the parable does teach that the foolish virgins miss out on some celebration.If we say that the foolish virgins are unbelievers we have to explain how unbelievers can go and "buy" the oil - universally reconized as a symbol of the Holy Spirit. Can an unbeliever BUY salvation? No. It is a gift.So the foolish do not attend the wedding feast in Matthew 25:1-13. They do have to go somewhere during that time and pay a price for extra oil. To obtain the Holy Spirit in the soul does require a price of denying ourselves. To receive the Holy Spirit in our human spirit is to receive that GIFT that Christ has paid for on His cross.Can anyone argue with this? Maybe. But consistent with the rest of the New Testament salvation from damnation is a gift. Maturity spiritually requires the paying of the price to deny ourselves to follow the Lord Jesus. Which following is up to the believer by choice. And which following is a WISE thing to do and a FOOLISH thing to neglect.Speaking with just the Christians in the discussion: Are we always wise? I'm not. How about you? Are there no moments as a disciple where you were foolish? Are we not sometimes foolish even though we are the disciples of Jesus?I think so. So we need to log more time being wise unto salvation.Now the parable immediately following the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is ALSO about the return of the Lord Jesus. In that parable it is a matter of faithfulness.The parable of the ten virgins concerns love and wisdom. The teaching of the faithful and unfaithful servants emphasizes faithfulness in service. The teaching of Christ is balanced. He expects LOVE to Him as a coming Bridegroom. He also expects FAITHFULNESS to Him in service as a Master who has discharged certain responsibilities.In the teaching of verses 14-30 there is an unfaithful servant who is judged as "useless" (v.30). The teaching stops short of saying the faithfless servant went away into eternal fire. But it does say that he was cast into the outer darkness.We should not consider that Christ has only TWO places - heaven and hell. We should be wise to realize the God could have other ways to deal with His people who have become faithless in service or foolish in following the Lord.In the outer darkness must be outside of the realm of Christ's persence. Instead of the servant being in the presence of Christ after His second coming, being bathed in His divine light, he is temporarily disciplined by being cast into outer darkness.I do not know what happens in the outder darkness. I do know that we know enough that it is something not to be desired. It is some kind of punishment. Unbelievers are not sent there. Believers in Christ who lose the reward are sent there. And there being there cannot be more than 1,000 years in duration.That is because all of the redeemed whose names are in the book of life participate in the eternal blessings of the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth - (Rev. 20,21).Since the kingdom of 1,000 years preceeds the new heaven and new earth (See Rev. 20,21), there is ample time during that age where God can still carry on some kind of perfecting work upon His own children. And some of that perfecting work will be negative as punishment or else the Lord would not say that in the outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.The conclusion of the matter is the it is logical that some of the believers will be found foolish and/or unfaithful when Jesus begins His millennial kingdom on the earth. And He alone will make the decision about them. Those who are with Him at the feast have prepared themselves with the righteousnesses of sanctification. They are not only called and chosen. They have been faithful as opposed to unfiathful as in the case of the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25:14-30.Apparently, there are degrees of reward. And most apparently there are also degrees of discipline. This despensing of reward or punishment to the saved and redeemed Christians must be before He establishes the millennial kingdom on earth. Yet they should also be after He has returned to resurrect and rapture all of His redeemed people. Therefore after all raptures and before He establishes His earthly 1,000 year kingdom.The judgement of the house of God happens in the air before He descends. Don't ask me how God can examine everyone of millions of believers in such a short amount of time. He is God. Perhaps He will deal with everyone simulataneously - at one time.I don't know how Jesus will do this. But He will examine His believers and decide what their position is for the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.Remember also that to the Lord a 1,000 years is as one day. A marriage feast is also usually one day. So to the Lord Jesus that feast may be only one day. But to the believers 1,000 years.

Jesus says his yoke is easy his burden light. He says to love God first and to love one another. Too me this is what Christ is about not about serving him but loving one another, that ye should go forth and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit shall remain. If are about what Christ is about it says he will call us friends not servants, for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth; Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. kjv john 15:11-18.In revelation you have a church full of works righteousnesses but not righteousness. In loving others we must not forget to love God First as well as not forgetting to love one another. My take it that were to love the brethren not the world for if ye were of the world the world would love its own. akjv john 15:19 It does say if you want to be great in the kingdom of God you become a servant to all but even so one needs to remember what Christ is about so your fruit will remain.Its in part about loving your neighbor but not the part you go get filthy drunk for the world will love the world thus my take to love the brethren is an important part of being about what Christ is about. The part of being not called a servant but a friend to be about what he's about so your fruit will remain.Loving God First"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lamp stand from its place”unless you repent." Revelation 2:4-5P.S. Loved that about the marriage feast might last 1000 years for one day to the Lord is a thousand years.I just think its righteousness and not righteousnesses but agree faith without works is dead but not forget our first love for if by placing works first were forgetting our first love. It reminds me of a friend saying find a church that loves to see you making it about loving one another in Christ the first love the first works. Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

I agree with you abour loving the Lord Jesus. I agree with this paragraph.Love is an expression of His divine life. We know that we have passed out of death and into life because we love the brothers. So divine love is the expression and evidence that divine life has entered into us.And First Corinthains 13 does show us that if we have not love we profit nothing. So I agree with you. Yes, Jesus did call the disciples friends before His resurrection. That was a more intimate term than servants. Then after His resurrection He said "Go to my brothers ...". In His resurrection an even more intimate expression was used by Jesus. We are now His brothers. His Father is our Father.We have been regenerated unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Peter 1:3). His life has been imparted into us in His resurrection. His Spirit has been dispensed into our spirit in resurrection -"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)So we must love Him and the brothers. You are quite right if you mean that any service unto the Lord must come out of our love for Him and the brethren. You are quite right if that is what you mean.Any "service" in Bible teaching, distribution of material needs, preaching of the gospel, care, shepherding other believers, etc. must come out of our love for the Lord, His Body, and a love for man.In the book of Acts the apostles Barnabus and Paul from Antioch accomplished a lot of work. However it says that they started out ministering "ministering to the Lord" (Acts 13:2) They were not first "man's need centered". Rather they first were centered on the Lord. The prayed and fasted "ministering to the Lord". That probably means they worshipped with praises and also petitions and requests according to the will of God. Out from that ministering to the Lord came the apostleships of Barnabus and Paul. And you know that they accomplished a lot of service to Christ.So the first love preceeds the service. And I think we should consider that it is not either / or. But it is both love and ministry towards the Lord Jesus and then going out in His grace with His love for service.Do not consider a small thing not a service. Do not consider that only the work of a missionary is service. Not all are apostles. But all can serve the Lord out of a loving heart for Him and His members. And he also stirs us to love the sinners to whom we take the gospel. That is very perceptive and true. I don't have time this morning to continue on this but perhaps latter. The degradation of the Christian church started when the church lost her first love.Now notice that they left their first love. And because of this their works were not pleasing to the Lord. Then He told them to repent and do the first works.I took some years and was not clear on what the first works were. But eventually I believe that the Holy Spirit showed me that the first works had to do with shepherding the fellow believers - feeding them with spiritual food. For Peter was told by the Lord three times that if he loved Jesus he must feed and shepherd His sheep (John 21:15-17)Today I feel that the first works that the church in Ephesus was called to do again were the works of feeding and shepherding the Lord's flock.Some teach but they do not feed. Do you know what I mean? Does the teaching nourish me. That is what I ask. Does this speaking feed my innermost spirit? Feeding refreshes and enlightens. Feeding strengthens and empowers inwardly.And shepherding involves care and being an example. It is not ruling autocratically but being an example with care and concern.
So I think that the church there in Ephesus lost their first love and stopped feeding and shepherding the Lord's flock.The first love is to love Jesus above everything as I think you are suggesting. It is to place God first. Nothing replaces or usurps His topmost position in our hearts.This to me is a daily matter. Each day I must start the day by telling the Lord Jesus that He is the first one. He is the top love. I place Him topmost in my heart. I try to begin each day this way.If I find, as I sometimes do, that I love something more than Jesus, I confess to Him. I tell Him that I am sorry but this or that thing means more to me than God. By confession I receive grace. And then that idol is replaced by the love of God. Things are put into perspective.You know we may have and own many things. They are not sinful necessarily. But nothing should replace Christ in our hearts. He should always have the first place. Anything that replaces Christ in our hearts has become an idol.Whatever becomes more important to us than Jesus becomes our idol. And we must guard ourselves from all idols and make Christ our first love. Then there is no problem with service which flows out of a Christ centered heart.So I am probably more in agreement with you in this matter than you realize.Must go now.