Historical Plausibility of Paul's Story

The term "Christian" was apparently a derogatory slang aimed at a sect of Jews who spoiled for the return of Israeli sovereignty. I think it unlikely that Rome imagined them inoccuous, or a trivial religious internal affair of the Jews. I suspect Rome held the Sanhedrin responsible for policing its own. Rome did, after all, support the local governments: civil and religious. That in itself would lead to the foregone conclusion. That the Jews did police their own with deadly effect is evident in the story of Jesus' arrest, trial and execution (in cooperation with Rome, of course).On the other hand, I have, like Jaywill, believed that the Sanhedrin's activity was a Black Op. I don't know if it is plausible that they could hide that activity from Rome, but let's face it: even today with all our fancy police powers, most missing persons remain missing and most murders remain unsolved. That's a U.S. reality. I don't know if it holds world-wide. What part of the Empire wasn't Rome's province? So far I am working within the myth. I don't know if the man actually existed. Assuming for the moment that he existed and persecuted Christians, and was willing to admit it; I don't see him showing us where the bodies are buried, or turning himself in to the proper authorities. Seems our murderous apostle/friend was always one step ahead of the law. Because, he did not intend to persecute them. He intended to undermine their faith; pretending to be one of them; claiming the title "apostle;" being the first to write about Jesus; casting himself as the great missionary; revising the gospel to make of it a "spiritual" rather than literal truth; putting off the reality of the kingdom to some indefinite time, in an uncertain future, and leaving to the deified Jesus, that dirty work of killing off the infidels. The new and improved Christianity was a kinder, gentler gospel better suited to a peace loving international community of believers.If this little tirade does not satisfy your desire for "evidence" then please think of it rather as a thought experiment.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

I cannot tell whether you are asking for "proof" of everything, or just the two points which you cite. Aside from that, I should remind you that we are not discussing something in the realm of that which may be proven. If one needs proofs then he should stick to geometry, mathematics, or photography. On this subject we can only talk about evidences, and as a lifelong student of the holy scriptures I have observed what I believe to be evidences pointing to the idea that Saul of Tarsus was able to accomplish through subterfuge, that which he could not accomplish by violence. An indirect evidence of this might be found in the fact that Christianity (rather Paul-ianity) became the official religion of the Roman empire and as such was, and is, considerably different from what Jesus appears to have intended.That said, I have prepared a tidbit of material which I believe to be evidence of Saul's misleading. Please keep in mind that he was a smooth operator; very subtle. Do not expect his attacks to be full frontal. A fine example of this would be how Paul draws attention away from Jesus and onto himself.Whereas Saint Peter seems to teach that God is responsible for the rebirth experienced by Christians ...

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“Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” 1Pe 1:3 KJV

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... and that Christ is the example which Christians should emulate;

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“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:” 1Pe 2:21 KJV

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Saul appears to have a different message:

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“ . I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.” 1Cr 4:15,16 KJV

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So much for holding Christ up as the example. Huh? Rome did not arrest Jesus. The temple police arrested Jesus. He ended up in Roman court because the Jews were pushing for capital punishment. I was talking about the Sanhedrin's suspected Black Ops (the killing of Stephan, et al). My statement was clearly imbedded in a separate paragraph on the subject. I realize that these things are difficult for a Pauline Christian to hear but please read my arguments more carefully.Is your knee still jerking?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Thank you for your response. The word is Greek {christianos}, a derivative of chrisos. The etymology is complex and I am not yet ready to interpret its meaning in an authoritative fashion. That it was derogatory is suggested by Thayer, who comments: "The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus by the Gentiles, but from the second century . onward accepted by them as a title of honor." which see. I was speaking of the execution of Stephan and other murders attributed to the Sanhedrin via Saul. As I said, "I don't know." Others have raised the possibility that the character is an historical fiction. That may or may not be a fact. I don't know. One did not become a Roman citizen by virtue of being born in a subject nation. That would be like a U.S. citizenship acquired by virtue of being born in occupied Iraq. One might become a Roman citizen for a fee (and pledge of allegiance) or, by being born to a Roman citizen. One of my proffesors asserted that Paul's mother was Hebrew and his father Roman. I do not find evidence for that in the New Testament, so I assume it was deduced from a knowledge of Roman customs. Seems reasonable to me. And Paul did say that he was "[free] born." It would appear that you actually agree with what I wrote. I have. And that is why I wrote to AgamemJon (post #23):

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"I realize that these things are difficult for a Pauline Christian to hear but please read my arguments more carefully."

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As I said before. I don't know.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

More than possible, I think. More like highly probable.Thing about it. Thousands of horny young soldier in a country full of nubile girls whose male counterparts have been killed or driven underground. You know. The sort of thing which always happens in war. People may not want to think about it. It may not appear on the evening news. But you can bet that it's going on today in good ol' Iraq. Maybe he was simply employing his power of reason and stating his conclusion as a matter of fact.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

'I'm saying it's a no-brainer that an army of occupation is going to generate a multitude of little bastards. King Herod was one of them. The thought was that Paul may have been the son of a legionairre but now I learn that it is an unlikely or impossible way to become a Roman citizen.I have been doing a bit of research into Roman law and it appears, at this point in my study, that Paul could probably not have been a freeborn Roman citizen unless both his parents were Roman citizens. The bit about citizenship by virtue of being born in the empire, was apparently not happening until much later (212 AD). There were other ways to become a citizen, but to be "born" a citizen, your parents had to be citizens. If there were exceptions to that rule I have not yet learned of them.In fact, in his letter to "the Romans," Paul asks them to say hello to his mother.

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"Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine." Rom 16:13

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A couple of modern versions paraphrase the last bit and make it sound like Paul is saying that the mother of Rufus is like a mother to him. I don't know whether this is appropriate. I do know that it seems strange that in all his writings I have found no mention of his parents. He claims to be a Jew, trained in Jerusalem, but that would be a good thing to have one's agent do. And wasn't it Paul who cautioned people saying that "many have entertained angels (agents) unawares." ? {Hbr 13:2}Still open to new info.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

If Paul were a secret agent then it's understandable why he would say "be kind to strangers, because you never know who's a secret agent."I'm saying that Paul's resume' is highly suspiscious. Saul of Tarsus - Temple trained Roman citizen - bounty hunter counting Christian coup, suddenly sees the light and becomes the number one representative of the deity of a sect he is sworn to destroy.If he was a Roman citizen, then his parents must have been Roman citizens which would make the whole family sympathetic to Rome: thus making Saul a questionable candidate for both: Temple training and Most important Apostle. And if he was not a Roman citizen then he was feeding Festus a line of bull.I realise that I am not accounting for his conversion which (if it were not a stroke) was a very convenient cover story to explain why the gospel of Jesus was getting a brand new bag.IMHO

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

I must admit that to date my opinion has been based on a mostly intuitive impression, having been indoctrinated with the teachings of both characters. The only clear "evidence" I have had in mind was the difference in how they discussed "the law." During a recent related research into Paul's writing's on the subject, I observed that my impression of his opinion may have been incorrect. Even so, during this debate, my intuition regarding his subterfuge has been bolstered.In an effort to answer your excellent question I have begun to search for the opinion of others and almost immediately came upon the following: Articles - Essene Church of ChristWhatever else may be revealed here (I have not yet read beyond the first paragraph), the featured quote reveals that other thinking men have arrived at the same opinion as I. We can pick this question up after a little more digging.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Let me save you the trouble. That site I cited (IMO) isn't worth reading.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Here's a useful resource: scripture-packed but with an annoyingly deficient quantity of commentary. opposingdigits - This Utube video is interesting if somewhat amateurish: http://youtube.com/watch?v=z3szqCAbDz0That's enough effort on my part for now. I have more tastey fish to fry.Cheers.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Here's a possibility: http://www.wordwiz72.com/paul.html

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One of the most famous critcisms comes from Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in a letter to James Smith, that "Paul was ... the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." (Works, 1829 edition, vol. 4, p. 327.)

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Here are a few more which you can see here: Just a moment...

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"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
-- Thomas Jefferson

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"Fundamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ."
-- Wil Durant

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"No sooner had Jesus knocked over the dragon of superstition than Paul boldly set it on its legs again in the name of Jesus."
-- George Bernard Shaw

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"My long time view about Christianity is that it represents an amalgam of two seemingly immiscible parts -- the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul. Thomas Jefferson attempted to excise the Pauline parts of the New Testament. There wasn't much left when he was done, but it was an inspiring document."
-- Carl Sagan

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

It sounds plausible based on the one line statement in the article you cite "Their children had no prohibitions" but I would need more information about Roman law before I could venture an answer to your question. I wonder whether both parents would have to be emancipated before their child could be considered "free born." I also wonder whether a female child born to an imancipated pair would enjoy the same status as a male child. Do you know anything about women's rights in ancient Rome?These are interesting questions but I don't feel compelled to answer them. I no longer consider Paul's gospel important to my salvation, so I'm not very concerned about his status with Rome.At any rate: I wouldn't fault him for lying about it in order to save his neck from that mob of angry towel-heads.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -