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Author Topic:   Peppered Moths and Natural Selection
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 269 of 350 (438213)
12-03-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Alan Fox
12-02-2007 6:51 AM


Re: PPT file and data now available
quote:
Are the scare-quotes intended to imply that Kettlewell's (note spelling) data were invalid, rather than just illustrative photos being posed due to the difficulty of photographing live moths?
Kettlewel observed resting positions of peppered moths on striped barell and noticed that carbonaria and melanica choosen stripes in accord with their wing coloration. It means melanica rested on white, carbonaria rested on black stripes. It means they choosen their resting backgrounds. I suppose industrial revolution didn't polute whole areas from one day to another. It took some time. So melanica having less places to rest moved to less poluted places. You know darwinian gradualism - they rested every day 10 meters more away from chimneys. After 10 years they were off and only carbonaria remain. Natural selection has nothing to do with it - melanica perhaps just relocated to clean areas.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2007 10:40 PM MartinV has replied

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 271 of 350 (438432)
12-04-2007 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by RAZD
12-03-2007 10:40 PM


Re: PPT file and data now available
Even IF you were right about emigration, you would still be wrong about natural selection, for that would have caused the emigration -- the movement of the moths in response to the changing environment would have selected for their survival.
If I am right I don't see a reason why to use peppered moths as an extraordinary example of natural selection in action (Much ado about nothing). Many species run away from polluted areas and no one - as far as I know - uses this trivial fact as convincing evidence for validity of natural selection.

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 Message 270 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2007 10:40 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2007 6:14 PM MartinV has replied

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 273 of 350 (438608)
12-05-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by RAZD
12-04-2007 6:14 PM


RAZD and his neodarwinian experiments
Nor does it explain the documented differential bird predation. You have to ignore the reality of evidence to reach your conclusions, and that is not science.
Do you mean that differential predation of peppered moths which were released in the morning? They were so frozen that Kettlewel heated them up in his car because they didn't want to move. After warming up they flown away but took the first place they found. I suppose this a "real science" and nobody should doubt about validity of this experiment.
Because emigration does not explain why the populations change and stay changed while the discoloration exists without the pollution.
It explains it very well. I suppose carbonaria are homozygous having only reccessive alleles. If melanica flew away there is obviously no need to wonder why carbonaria stayed unchanged.
Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.
Edited by MartinV, : past participle

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Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2007 2:07 PM MartinV has replied

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 275 of 350 (438633)
12-05-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by RAZD
12-05-2007 2:07 PM


RAZD back up his strange neodarwinian experiments
quote:
This factoid would be relevant if (1) it made the moths rest in places they normally don't (it did not) and
In the Ketllewel experiment with barrels moths rested on the stripes of their respective wing colors. In the Kettlewel experiment with warmed up moths they rested on the places they hit upon as first. On your opinion on which places moths rest "normally"?

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 276 of 350 (439364)
12-08-2007 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by RAZD
12-05-2007 2:07 PM


RAZD didn't answer questions and attacked creationists on another thread
I've seen you started a new thread about similarity of cats and foxes.
But you still haven't answered my question where pappered moths usually rest (I mean color of background, no part of trees). Do you consider this question not worth answering?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2007 2:07 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2007 1:36 PM MartinV has replied

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 278 of 350 (439370)
12-08-2007 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by RAZD
12-08-2007 1:36 PM


Re: falsehoods recycled
I suppose others will make their own conclusions regarding your arguments.

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 Message 277 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2007 1:36 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 280 of 350 (439722)
12-10-2007 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Percy
12-08-2007 3:18 PM


Re: falsehoods recycled
If you think that migration of melanica as the possible explanation of the peppered moths case is not "worth responding" I am surprised.
Either you like RAZD think it supports natural selection (e.g. same as being eliminated by birds predation) or you are convinced migration didn't occur. In either case I would like to know some arguments which you obviously do not have.
That's the reason I am troll not "worth responding". My questions are annoying because you have no prepared answers to them at "talkorigin".
The same for mimicry where you are unable answers why some wasps
are not having "warning coloration" and other harmless waps have
very dangerous looking warning coloration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Percy, posted 12-08-2007 3:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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