Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Contradictions between Genesis 1-2
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 256 of 308 (441132)
12-16-2007 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by imageinvisible
12-16-2007 1:28 PM


Re: to flimsy arguements
Ringo writes:
... you continue to read the word formed (as created) in the present tense.
No, I don't. I read both "formed" and "created" in the past tense. I have said explicitly that everything we are reading is in the past tense.
You're arguing against a point I never made.
This whole arguement is based on the ASSUMPTION that formed=created...
It's not an assumption. It's a conclusion. In this thread, everybody but you seems to have concluded that both chapters are creation stories.
If you disagree with the conclusion, argue it in the proper thread.
... chapter 2 is fully half of the A&E story.
That statement illustrates your level of understanding better than I ever could.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by imageinvisible, posted 12-16-2007 1:28 PM imageinvisible has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 308 (441134)
12-16-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by purpledawn
12-16-2007 1:48 PM


Re: Gobbldygook
PD,
PD writes:
So you keep saying, but I don't see discussion on your part. I know read your OP.
Finally!
PD writes:
The OP gave verses and conclusions. You presented those conclusions, whether they are your personal conclusions or not.
I gave no overall conclusion in my OP of G1-G3. The point was to discuss my conclusion of the said verses in my OP. If one read my OP they can only percieve that I concluded that there are verses in G1-G2 that contradict each other.
PD writes:
What do you think it means to discuss something.
PD writes:
When you're willing to look at the pros and cons of both sides, you have a discussion.
That's the point of a discussion. Hence: why we would discuss the specific verses in my OP and not the entirety of G1-G3.
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by purpledawn, posted 12-16-2007 1:48 PM purpledawn has not replied

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 258 of 308 (441144)
12-16-2007 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Force
11-27-2007 8:56 PM


re: OP
tthzr3 writes:
3) The overall order of creation in Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 is different than in Genesis 2:4-25.
Only if the descriptive words (formed, planted, made, etc.) refer to occurances that are taking place IN chapter 2 and are not a flashback to occurances that happened on day 6 in chapter 1. Meaning that if the words used mean to form, to make, to plant rather than had formed, had made, had planted, then yes there may be a contradiction. If not then there is not. (no more of this tense is irrelivant bull. I'm arguing that chapter 2 is a flashback to day 6 in chapter 1 WHICH makes tence VERY relevant. It is your agruement that what you are reading is as an 'as it is happening' i.e. present tense creation story.)
tthzr3 writes:
4) Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 each thing created was considered good but in Genesis 2:5-20 it seems creation was a process of trial and error.
Show me the error part, heck show me the trial part. What I get from reading chapter 2 is that YHWH used a hands on aproach to creating everything, and this is mirrored in chapter 1 where God YHWH created everything from out of the water and the earth. "Let the earth bring forth". As to concerning woman and God taking her from man you are confusing a teaching/learning point (that man is unique upon the earth and that there are none like him) with an assumed error or missjudgement on Gods part. (and don't give me any bull about giraffes and ducks being unique as well. We are all aware of the many facets to the giraffe and duck societies, what with all of there universities, and advanced medical research. Their sprawling metropolices, public school systems, and governments. Their capasity for speach and liturature, their artistic natures, and there abilities to grasp concepts like logic, nuclear physics, complex quantum mechanics, and mathmatical principles, as well as their ability to contemplate where they came from, and what, if any, is the purpose to their existance.)
tthzr3 writes:
6) Genesis 1:29 because all plants are available for eating but in Genesis 2:16-17 some plants are off limits to eat.
Again you are confusing a teaching/learning point (present in chapter 1) that specificaly means that all life that had been created is to eat, will eat, or did eat, plants. That plants where created to be eaten, specificaly because they are not breathing creatures. The author is saying that plants where made to be food for all living creatures, not that all plants where/are safe to eat.
Chapter 2 makes the distinction that out of ALL the plants (up until the time it was eaten) only one plant was harmful to man.
tthzr3 writes:
5) Genesis 1:26 because there seems to be more than God creating but in Genesis 2:4-25 there is only LORD God creating.
*The word God/Elohim is used in Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 but in Genesis 2:4-25 LORD God/YHWH Elohim is used. Not a contradiction just an interesting point.
*Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 the creation story seems to be more sophisticated than the creation story in Genesis 2:4-25. Not a contradiction just an interesting point.
You missed one.
tthzr3 writes:
7) Genesis 1:28 because humans subdue the earth but in Genesis 2:15 humans serve the earth.
Gen 1:28 tell us that man has stewardship over the earth. And while Gen. 2:15 says nothing concerning the whole earth (just a small portion of it) it does say that man should be a good steward. (another common theme throughout the Bible) http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0102.htm this translation here (taken directly from the hebrew text) says 'to dress it and keep it'. man is not being made a servent of the plants, God is telling man to take, keep, and maintain that which He(God) has provided.
tthzr3 writes:
8) Genesis 1:21-22 because the purpose for animals is not related to humans but in Genesis 2:18-19 the purpose for animals is related to humans.
Gen. 1 says nothing concerning the purpose of the animals, except that man is to have dominion (is placed in a position of stewardship over) the animals, and niether does Gen. 2. Gen. 2 mearly states that Adam named all the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air. Sounds to me as if he was doing what God told him to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Force, posted 11-27-2007 8:56 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 12-16-2007 3:45 PM imageinvisible has replied
 Message 262 by Force, posted 12-16-2007 3:49 PM imageinvisible has replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 259 of 308 (441148)
12-16-2007 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
12-16-2007 11:20 AM


Re: Validated
doctrbill writes:
"God requires a blood sacrifice. Somebody has to die."
(Preferrably non-Christian )
jar writes:
Is that why God chose a nice Jewish boy and not some Goy?
I'm sure.
quote:
"Salvation is of the Jews." Jesus Christ John 4:22

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 11:20 AM jar has not replied

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 260 of 308 (441150)
12-16-2007 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
12-16-2007 11:20 AM


Re: Validated
You don't get out much do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 11:20 AM jar has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 308 (441154)
12-16-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by imageinvisible
12-16-2007 2:50 PM


re: OP
imageinvisible writes:
I'm arguing that chapter 2 is a flashback to day 6 in chapter 1 WHICH makes tence VERY relevant.
Then you have to show how the tenses in chapter two indicate a "flashback".
For example, we see past tense in chapter 1:
quote:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
and we see past tense again in chapter 2:
quote:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Continuing in chapter 2, we see the past perfect (?) tense:
quote:
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
referring back to verse 7.
If all of chapter 2 is a flashback referring back to chapter 1, why isn't all of chapter 2 in the past perfect tense?

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by imageinvisible, posted 12-16-2007 2:50 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by imageinvisible, posted 12-16-2007 5:59 PM ringo has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 308 (441155)
12-16-2007 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by imageinvisible
12-16-2007 2:50 PM


re: OP
II,
II writes:
Only if the descriptive words (formed, planted, made, etc.) refer to occurances that are taking place IN chapter 2 and are not a flashback to occurances that happened on day 6 in chapter 1. Meaning that if the words used mean to form, to make, to plant rather than had formed, had made, had planted, then yes there may be a contradiction. If not then there is not. (no more of this tense is irrelivant bull. I'm arguing that chapter 2 is a flashback to day 6 in chapter 1 WHICH makes tence VERY relevant. It is your agruement that what you are reading is as an 'as it is happening' i.e. present tense creation story.)
The order is still different.
II writes:
Show me the error part, heck show me the trial part. What I get from reading chapter 2 is that YHWH used a hands on aproach to creating everything, and this is mirrored in chapter 1 where God YHWH created everything from out of the water and the earth. "Let the earth bring forth". As to concerning woman and God taking her from man you are confusing a teaching/learning point (that man is unique upon the earth and that there are none like him) with an assumed error or missjudgement on Gods part. (and don't give me any bull about giraffes and ducks being unique as well. We are all aware of the many facets to the giraffe and duck societies, what with all of there universities, and advanced medical research. Their sprawling metropolices, public school systems, and governments. Their capasity for speach and liturature, their artistic natures, and there abilities to grasp concepts like logic, nuclear physics, complex quantum mechanics, and mathmatical principles, as well as their ability to contemplate where they came from, and what, if any, is the purpose to their existance.)
God apparently forgot to make a "samekind" helper for Adam. Read below:
KJV GEN 2:20 writes:
And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Note: the entire context of Gen 2:20 starts in Gen 2:4 but however I am describing where the error is reported in the creation story. Hence trial and error.
II writes:
The author is saying that plants where made to be food for all living creatures, not that all plants where/are safe to eat.
Chapter 2 makes the distinction that out of ALL the plants (up until the time it was eaten) only one plant was harmful to man.
This portion is, ofcourse, dealing with the assumption the Bible is in fact the word of God. I will not make such assumptions as you're making in your comment above. When I read Genesis 1:29 it describes that all plants are for food. When I read Genesis 2:16-17 not all plants are for food. Hence a contradiction between Genesis 1:29 and 2:16-17.
II writes:
You missed one.
Where?
II writes:
Gen 1:28 tell us that man has stewardship over the earth. And while Gen. 2:15 says nothing concerning the whole earth (just a small portion of it) it does say that man should be a good steward. (another common theme throughout the Bible) http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0102.htm this translation here (taken directly from the hebrew text) says 'to dress it and keep it'. man is not being made a servent of the plants, God is telling man to take, keep, and maintain that which He(God) has provided.
The context of Genesis 1:28 describes man as a dominate species that has power over all other species on the earth. I find no information that describes man to care for the earth or, even more specifically, care for the other species on the earth. The context of Genesis 2:15 is to imply that man has to care for a specific portion of the earth. In one hand we have the power to do what we want to other species but in the other hand we have no power but we must only care for other species. Hence Dominion over species vs Care for species which is a direct contradiction.
II writes:
Gen. 1 says nothing concerning the purpose of the animals, except that man is to have dominion (is placed in a position of stewardship over) the animals, and niether does Gen. 2. Gen. 2 mearly states that Adam named all the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air. Sounds to me as if he was doing what God told him to do.
I thank you for helping me realize that there is no purpose for animals in G1 but however there is a purpose for animals in G2. Hence: a contradiction. However the deity seems to denote a purpose for some species in 1:21-22.
Pease note:
G1: Dominion = Power
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
G2: to dress: serve
G2: to keep: guard
I get a sense of ownership granted to man in G1 but in G2 I get a sense of "charge" which is alot less than ownership.
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by imageinvisible, posted 12-16-2007 2:50 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by imageinvisible, posted 12-16-2007 7:27 PM Force has replied
 Message 267 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2007 5:31 AM Force has not replied

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 263 of 308 (441196)
12-16-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
12-16-2007 3:45 PM


re: OP
Gen. 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
A whole pile of cut and past hidden; use peek if you really, really need to see it. Don't say you were not warned.
ImagineInVisible: Do not do that again!
AdminNosy
Then {1. at that time 2. immediately or soon afterward 3. next in order of time 4. at the same time 5. next in order of place 6. in addition; besides; also 7. in that case; as a consequence; in those circumstances 8. since that is so; as it appears; therefore You are leaving tonight then. -adjective 9. being; being such; existing or being at the time indicated: the then prime minister. -noun 10. that time: We have not been back since then. Till then, farewell. ”Idioms11. but then, but on the other hand: I found their conversation very dull, but then I have different tastes. 12. then and there, at that precise time and place; at once; on the spot: I started to pack my things right then and there. Also, there and then. [Origin: bef. 900; ME then(ne), than(n)e, OE thonne, thanne, thænne; cf. than; akin to that] ”Synonyms 8. See therefore.} the LORD God [YHWH] formed {formed, form·ing, forms; To give form to; shape: form clay into figures. To develop in the mind; conceive: form an opinion. To shape or mold (dough, for example) into a particular form. To arrange oneself in: Holding out his arms, the cheerleader formed a T. The acrobats formed a pyramid. To organize or arrange: The environmentalists formed their own party. To fashion, train, or develop by instruction or precept: form a child's mind. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. To shape or mold (dough, for example) into a particular form. To arrange oneself in: Holding out his arms, the cheerleader formed a T. The acrobats formed a pyramid. To organize or arrange: The environmentalists formed their own party. To fashion, train, or develop by instruction or precept: form a child's mind. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. To come to have; develop or acquire: form a habit. To constitute or compose a usually basic element, part, or characteristic of. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. To put in order; arrange. v. intr. To become formed or shaped. To come into being by taking form; arise. To assume a specified form, shape, or pattern.} man of the dust of the ground, and breathed {-adjective Phonetics. 1. not phonated; unvoiced; voiceless. 2. utilizing the breath exclusively in the production of a speech sound.; breathed, breath·ing, breathes v. intr. To inhale and exhale air, especially when naturally and freely. To be alive; live: A nicer person has never breathed. To pause to rest or regain breath: Give me a moment to breathe. To move or blow gently, as air. To allow air to pass through: a natural fabric that breathes. To be exhaled or emanated, as a fragrance. To be manifested or suggested, as an idea or feeling: A sense of calm breathed from the landscape. To reach fullness of flavor and aroma through exposure to air. Used chiefly of wine. To require air in the combustion process. Used of an internal-combustion engine. v. tr. To inhale and exhale (air, for example) during respiration. To inhale (an aroma, for example): breathe the lush scent of lilacs. To impart as if by breathing; instill: an artist who knows how to breathe life into a portrait. To exhale (something); emit. To utter, especially quietly: Don't breathe a word of this. To make apparent or manifest; suggest: Their manner breathed self-satisfaction. To allow (a person or animal) to rest or regain breath. Linguistics To utter with a voiceless exhalation of air. To draw in (air) for the combustion process. Used of an internal-combustion engine.} into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became {-verb pt. of become. v. Past tense of become. verb, be·came, be·come, be·com·ing. -verb (used without object) 1. to come, change, or grow to be (as specified): He became tired. 2. to come into being. -verb (used with object) 3. to be attractive on; befit in appearance; look well on: That gown becomes you. 4. to be suitable or necessary to the dignity, situation, or responsibility of: conduct that becomes an officer. ”Idiom5. become of, to happen to; be the fate of: What will become of him? [Origin: bef. 900; ME becumen, OE becuman to come about, happen; c. D bekomen, G bekommen, Goth biqiman. See be-, come]} a living {-adjective 1. having life; being alive; not dead: living persons. 2. in actual existence or use; extant: living languages. 3. active or thriving; vigorous; strong: a living faith. 4. burning or glowing, as a coal. 5. flowing freely, as water. 6. pertaining to, suitable for, or sufficient for existence or subsistence: living conditions; a living wage. 7. of or pertaining to living persons: within living memory. 8. lifelike; true to life, as a picture or narrative. 9. in its natural state and place; not uprooted, changed, etc.: living rock. 10. very; absolute (used as an intensifier): to scare the living daylights out of someone. -noun 11. the act or condition of a person or thing that lives: Living is very expensive these days. 12. the means of maintaining life; livelihood: to earn one's living. 13. a particular manner, state, or status of life: luxurious living. 14. (used with a plural verb) living persons collectively (usually prec. by the): glad to be among the living. 15. British. the benefice of a clergyman. [Origin: bef. 900; (adj.) ME lyvyng(e); r. earlier liviende, OE lifgende (see live1, -ing2); (n.) ME living(e) (see -ing1)]} soul. {-noun 1. the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part. 2. the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul. 3. the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him. 4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments. 5. a human being; person. 6. high-mindedness; noble warmth of feeling, spirit or courage, etc. 7. the animating principle; the essential element or part of something. 8. the inspirer or moving spirit of some action, movement, etc. 9. the embodiment of some quality: He was the very soul of tact. 10. (initial capital letter) Christian Science. God; the divine source of all identity and individuality. 11. shared ethnic awareness and pride among black people, esp. black Americans. 12. deeply felt emotion, as conveyed or expressed by a performer or artist. 13. soul music. -adjective 14. of, characteristic of, or for black Americans or their culture: soul newspapers. [Origin: bef. 900; ME; OE swl, swol; c. D ziel, G Seele, ON sl, Goth saiwala]”Related forms soullike, adjective ”Synonyms 1. spirit. 4. heart. 7. essence, core, heart.}
[in referance to verses 5&6]
and/then/therefore/in addition to/for this reason the LORD God had caused man To become formed or shaped. To come into being by taking form; arise. and blew into mans nostrils the breath of life; and/then/therefore/in addition to/for this reason man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And the LORD God [YHWH] planted {plant·ed, plant·ing, plants To place or set (seeds, for example) in the ground to grow. To place seeds or young plants in (land); sow: plant a field in corn. To place (spawn or young fish) in water or an underwater bed for cultivation: plant oysters. To stock with spawn or fish. To station (a person) for the purpose of functioning in secret, as by observing, spying, or influencing behavior: Detectives were planted all over the store. To place secretly or deceptively so as to be discovered or made public: planted a gun on the corpse to make the death look like suicide. To place (spawn or young fish) in water or an underwater bed for cultivation: plant oysters. To stock with spawn or fish. To station (a person) for the purpose of functioning in secret, as by observing, spying, or influencing behavior: Detectives were planted all over the store. To place secretly or deceptively so as to be discovered or made public: planted a gun on the corpse to make the death look like suicide. To introduce (an animal) into an area. To set firmly in position; fix: planted both feet on the ground. To establish; found: plant a colony. To fix firmly in the mind; implant: "The right of revolution is planted in the heart of man" (Clarence Darrow). To station (a person) for the purpose of functioning in secret, as by observing, spying, or influencing behavior: Detectives were planted all over the store. To place secretly or deceptively so as to be discovered or made public: planted a gun on the corpse to make the death look like suicide. To conceal; hide: planted the stolen goods in the warehouse. Slang To deliver (a blow or punch). garden estward in eden; and there He put {put1 [put] verb ” present participle putting; past tense, past participle put to place in a certain position or situation} the man whome He had formed. {formed, form·ing, forms; To give form to; shape: form clay into figures. To develop in the mind; conceive: form an opinion. To shape or mold (dough, for example) into a particular form. To arrange oneself in: Holding out his arms, the cheerleader formed a T. The acrobats formed a pyramid. To organize or arrange: The environmentalists formed their own party. To fashion, train, or develop by instruction or precept: form a child's mind. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. To shape or mold (dough, for example) into a particular form. To arrange oneself in: Holding out his arms, the cheerleader formed a T. The acrobats formed a pyramid. To organize or arrange: The environmentalists formed their own party. To fashion, train, or develop by instruction or precept: form a child's mind. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. To come to have; develop or acquire: form a habit. To constitute or compose a usually basic element, part, or characteristic of. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. To put in order; arrange. v. intr. To become formed or shaped. To come into being by taking form; arise. To assume a specified form, shape, or pattern.}
In addition to/then/therefore/for this reason the LORD God [YHWH] established a garden eastward in eden; in addition to/then/therefore/for this reason there He placed in a certain position or situation man whom He had caused to become formed or shaped.
Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
And the Lord God [YHWH] took {1. pt. of take. 2. Nonstandard. a pp. of take.} the man and put { put1 [put] verb ” present participle putting; past tense, past participle put to place in a certain position or situation} him into the guarden of eden to dress {11. to trim; ornament; adorn: to dress a store window; to dress a Christmas tree. ; 14. to cut up, trim, and remove the skin, feathers, viscera, etc., from (an animal, meat, fowl, or flesh of a fowl) for market or for cooking (often fol. by out when referring to a large animal): We dressed three chickens for the dinner. He dressed out the deer when he got back to camp. ; 15. to prepare (skins, fabrics, timber, stone, ore, etc.) by special processes. ; 16. to apply medication or a dressing to (a wound or sore). ; 17. to make straight; bring (troops) into line: to dress ranks. ; 18. to make (stone, wood, or other building material) smooth. ; 19. to cultivate (land, fields, etc.).} and to keep {1. to hold or retain in one's possession; hold as one's own: If you like it, keep it. Keep the change. 2. to hold or have the use of for a period of time: You can keep it for the summer. 3. to hold in a given place; store: You can keep your things in here. 4. to maintain (some action), esp. in accordance with specific requirements, a promise, etc.: to keep watch; to keep step. 5. to cause to continue in a given position, state, course, or action: to keep a light burning; to keep a child happy. 6. to maintain in condition or order, as by care and labor: He keeps his car in good condition. 7. to maintain in usable or edible condition; preserve: If you want to keep meat for a long time, freeze it. 8. to hold in custody or under guard, as a prisoner: They kept him in jail. 9. to cause to stay in a particular place; prevent or restrain from departure: The work kept her at the office. 10. to have regularly in stock and for sale: to keep a large supply of machine parts. 11. to maintain in one's service or for one's use or enjoyment: to keep a car and chauffeur. 12. to associate with: She keeps bad company. 13. to have the care, charge, or custody of: She keeps my dog when I travel. 14. to refrain from disclosing; withhold from the knowledge of others: to keep a secret. 15. to withhold from use; reserve; save: I'll keep this toy until you learn to behave. Keep the good wine for company. 16. to hold back or restrain: They kept the child from talking. Nothing can keep him from doing it. 17. to maintain control of; regulate: to keep the peace; to keep your temper. } it.
In addition to/then/therefore/for this reason the LORD God [YHWH] took (pt of take) the man, in addition to/then/therefore/for this reason placed in a certain position or situation man into the garden of Eden to to cut up, trim, and remove the skin, feathers, viscera, etc., from in addition to/then/therefore/for this reason to maintain (some action), esp. in accordance with specific requirements, a promise, etc.
18 out the 25 verses in chapter 2 start with the word and. Furthermore whereever you see and in can be relaces with it synonyms and any of thier synonyms, and any of thier synoyms, ect. ect. ect. then/in addition to/therefore/for this reason/also/together with/as well as/besides/moreover/added to/plus/at the same time/again/repeatedly/but/on the contrary/et cetera
AND /ænd; unstressed nd, n, or, especially after a homorganic consonant, n/ [and; unstressed uhnd, uhn, or, especially after a homorganic consonant, n] -conjunction 1. (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: 2. added to; plus: 2 and 2 are 4. 3. then: He read for an hour and went to bed. 4. also, at the same time: to sleep and dream. 5. then again; repeatedly: He coughed and coughed. 6. (used to imply different qualities in things having the same name): There are bargains and bargains, so watch out. 7. (used to introduce a sentence, implying continuation) also; then: And then it happened. 8. Informal. to (used between two finite verbs): Try and do it. Call and see if she's home yet. 9. (used to introduce a consequence or conditional result): He felt sick and decided to lie down for a while. Say one more word about it and I'll scream. 10. but; on the contrary: He tried to run five miles and couldn't. They said they were about to leave and then stayed for two more hours. 11. (used to connect alternatives): He felt that he was being forced to choose between his career and his family. 12. (used to introduce a comment on the preceding clause): They don't like each other”and with good reason. 13. Archaic. if: and you please. Compare an2. -noun 14. an added condition, stipulation, detail, or particular: He accepted the job, no ands or buts about it. 15. conjunction (def. 5b). ”Idioms16. and so forth, and the like; and others; et cetera: We discussed traveling, sightseeing, and so forth. 17. and so on, and more things or others of a similar kind; and the like: It was a summer filled with parties, picnics, and so on.
[Origin: bef. 900; ME; OE and, ond; c. OS, OHG ant, OFris, Goth and, Icel and-; akin to G und, D en, Skt anti]
”Usage note Both and and but, and to a lesser extent or and so, are common as transitional words at the beginnings of sentences in all types of speech and writing: General Jackson thought the attack would come after darkness. And he was right. Any objection to this practice probably stems from the overuse of such sentences by inexperienced writers. When one of these words begins a sentence or an independent clause within a sentence, it is not followed by a comma unless the comma is one of a pair setting off a parenthetical element that follows: John is popular, and he seems to be well adjusted. But, appearances to the contrary, he is often depressed. See also and/or,
The major difference bewteen chapter 2 and chapter one is that though chapter 1 uses past tense, each past tence is followed by present tense occurance. i.e. Gen.1:11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. Gen. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

I'm actually relieved that the Bible doen't read like this, no one would read it.
Edited by AdminNosy, : a bunch of disorganized, unformatted "Stuff" hidden
Edited by AdminNosy, : fix oops
Edited by AdminNosy, : finally?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 12-16-2007 3:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 12-16-2007 6:13 PM imageinvisible has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 264 of 308 (441200)
12-16-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by imageinvisible
12-16-2007 5:59 PM


re: OP
imageinvisible writes:
The major difference bewteen chapter 2 and chapter one is that though chapter 1 uses past tense, each past tence is followed by present tense occurance.
Do you understand what tenses are?
"God said", "it was so", "the earth brought forth" and "God saw" are all past tense. There are no present tense occurrences.
God spoke (past tense) in the present tense because it was (past tense) the present when He spoke (past tense).
In order to back up your "flashback" hypothesis, it would have to say something like, "God formed (past tense) the animals that He had made (past perfect tense)." As far as I can tell, there's no indication of any such thing.
-------------
ABE: AdminNosy hid the part that I quoted (not that I blame him ) but I think it's the (only) pertinent part of the post.
Edited by Ringo, : No reason given.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by imageinvisible, posted 12-16-2007 5:59 PM imageinvisible has not replied

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 265 of 308 (441225)
12-16-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Force
12-16-2007 3:49 PM


re: OP
tthzr3 writes:
God apparently forgot to make a "samekind" helper for Adam
He did not forget, [and there is no evening and morning clause anywhere in chapter 2 that signifies that He at any point forgot] He made the makeing a of a helpmate for adam a special occurance, and through that occurance established His first law concerning marrage.
tthzr3 writes:
Note: the entire context of Gen 2:20 starts in Gen 2:4 but however I am describing where the error is reported in the creation story. Hence trial and error.
That is of course assuming that verse four is the start of the A&E story and not a sentance signifying the end of the creation week. But that aside "where" did you discribe the error?
tthxr3 writes:
Pease note:
G1: Dominion = Power
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
G2: to dress: serve
G2: to keep: guard
I get a sense of ownership granted to man in G1 but in G2 I get a sense of "charge" which is alot less than ownership.
I would say see message 263 especially concerning the definitions of dress, and the definitions of keep but apearently I'm not allowed to define these words, even if they do come from Dictionary.com. I wonder if I can included a link to them. I'll try and see. Dress Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/keep
It is true that God granted stewardship but as a matter of respect for God He calls us to be good stewards and not take His gift for granted.
tthzr3 writes:
This portion is, ofcourse, dealing with the assumption the Bible is in fact the word of God.
As to this. "If they do not believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced though one rise from the dead."
Though He slay me, yet will I beleve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Force, posted 12-16-2007 3:49 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Force, posted 12-16-2007 8:29 PM imageinvisible has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 308 (441233)
12-16-2007 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by imageinvisible
12-16-2007 7:27 PM


re: OP
II,
II writes:
He did not forget, [and there is no evening and morning clause anywhere in chapter 2 that signifies that He at any point forgot] He made the makeing a of a helpmate for adam a special occurance, and through that occurance established His first law concerning marrage.
There is no need for a "evening and morning" clause in order to show error. The error is shown in the verses:
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
II writes:
That is of course assuming that verse four is the start of the A&E story and not a sentance signifying the end of the creation week. But that aside "where" did you discribe the error?
The creation week in Genesis 1 ends in Genesis 2:3:
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
II writes:
I would say see message 263 especially concerning the definitions of dress, and the definitions of keep but apearently I'm not allowed to define these words, even if they do come from Dictionary.com. I wonder if I can included a link to them. I'll try and see. Dress Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/keep
It is true that God granted stewardship but as a matter of respect for God He calls us to be good stewards and not take His gift for granted.
Do we really need to argue definitions here? I think we are all above that? It is obvious that "dress" means to "serve" and that "keep" means to "guard" in the context of Genesis 2:15.
I think at this point in our conversation, since there is obviously not going to be any change in our particular beliefs, we should agree to disagree.
P.S. When one is seeking an actual meaning of a word in the Bible it is better to reference the original words/definition instead of the english translations. I have supplied the hebrew words/definitions below for Gen 2:15: dress and keep. I have also supplied the hebrew word/defintion for "dominion" in gen 1:28; below.
Dress(`abad) Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
Keep(shamar)Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
Dominion(radah ) Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
If you do not want to trust me trust the source.
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.
Edited by tthzr3, : clarity
Edited by tthzr3, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by imageinvisible, posted 12-16-2007 7:27 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by imageinvisible, posted 12-17-2007 3:30 PM Force has replied
 Message 279 by imageinvisible, posted 12-17-2007 9:23 PM Force has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 267 of 308 (441340)
12-17-2007 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Force
12-16-2007 3:49 PM


Trial and Error
OP writes:
4) Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 each thing created was considered good but in Genesis 2:5-20 it seems creation was a process of trial and error.
Unfortunately the verse you provided does not support your conclusion that creation was a process of trial and error. It would only support the idea that the creation of mankind took an extra step.
Genesis 2:20 (Complete Jewish Bible)
20 So the person gave names to all the livestock, to the birds in the air and to every wild animal. But for Adam there was not found a companion suitable for helping him.
But there really isn't any trial and error in the actual creation of the world or man. God made man, he didn't have to redo him. Then God made woman from man. Again God didn't have to redo what he created.
Trial and error means to attempt and fail. I don't see failure in anything created.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Force, posted 12-16-2007 3:49 PM Force has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 12-17-2007 9:33 AM purpledawn has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 308 (441361)
12-17-2007 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by purpledawn
12-17-2007 5:31 AM


Re: Trial and Error
Here is the trial and error.
Genesis 2 writes:
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
God realizes that Adam needs a help meet, so he starts making animals and bringing them to Adam for him to name and try out, but not one of them turns out to be a help meet (although I hear that Adam kinda liked the chimp and was really smitten by one of the sheep). So after trial, and failure, God tries a different process. Instead of using mud and clay and huffing and puffing God tries cloning, taking some of Adams cells and growing a new critter (it does not mention the infamous y-->x screw up, but remember, it was Her first try cloning).
The Good Doctor writes:
O give me a clone of my own flesh and bone,
With its Y chromosome changed to X.
And when it is grown, then my own little clone
Will be of the opposite sex.
Chorus:
Clone, clone of my own,
With its Y chromosome changed to X
And when I'm alone with my own little clone
We'll both think of nothing but sex.
O give me a clone, hear my sorrowful moan,
Just a clone that is wholly my own.
And if it's an X of the feminine sex,
Oh what fun we will have when we're prone.
(Chorus)
My heart's not of stone, as I've frequently shown
When alone with my dear little X
And after we've dined, I am sure we will find
Better incest than Oedipus Rex.
(Chorus)
Why should such sex vex, or disturb or perplex.
Or induce a disparaging tone?
After all, don't you see, since we're both of us me.
When we're making love, I'm alone.
(Chorus)
And after I'm done, she will still have her fun,
For I'll clone myself twice ere I die.
And this time without fail, they'll be both of them male,
And they'll each ravish her by-and-by.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2007 5:31 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2007 9:48 AM jar has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 269 of 308 (441364)
12-17-2007 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
12-17-2007 9:33 AM


Re: Trial and Error
That's true.
OK I can see the concept of trial and error in finding Adam a mate, but not the whole process of creation as the OP stated.
4) Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 each thing created was considered good but in Genesis 2:5-20 it seems creation was a process of trial and error.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 12-17-2007 9:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 12-17-2007 9:57 AM purpledawn has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 270 of 308 (441366)
12-17-2007 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by purpledawn
12-17-2007 9:48 AM


Re: Trial and Error
purpledawn writes:
OK I can see the concept of trial and error in finding Adam a mate, but not the whole process of creation as the OP stated.
Well let's look at Genesis 2 again.
Genesis 2 writes:
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
It looks like all of the animals were trials to find a help meet for Adam and pretty much errors since none worked out (although as mentioned, that little lamb was so fluffy) and that God finally even abandoned the method She had been using to try a new tack, cloning. And the question remains, was the Y-->X intended or was it really meant for Adam's help meet to be Steve, not Eve?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2007 9:48 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2007 1:22 PM jar has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024