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Author Topic:   My God versus Your God..Amen and Phat Only
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1690
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 1 of 16 (443850)
12-27-2007 2:07 AM


Amen and I are going to discuss our beliefs and philosophies concerning our theology that we were raised with and what we have come to believe about the nature of GOD as we understand Him. (so far.... of course! :)
)

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 2 of 16 (444564)
12-29-2007 9:29 PM


Yo PhaT, StarT iT uP HoMiE.

sincerely yours, Amen.

Edited by Amen., : got a new signature.


"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
[Matthew 27:46]

"He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."
[JOB 41:34]

"You feel the last bit of breath leaving their body. You're looking into their eyes. A person in that situation is God!" -Ted Bundy


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-30-2007 12:37 AM Am5n has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 7303
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 16 (444605)
12-30-2007 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Am5n
12-29-2007 9:29 PM


Heres A Little Story...I Gots Ta Tell
Amen, let me tell you a little bit about my past.

My parents were not really overly religious,but they did go to church at
Washington Park United Methodist Church. Dad said that he went to church because "it made you feel good".

I never really thought much about God. I never felt as if I knew Him or anything. I did meet some cool old ladies at church that just seemed so "in love" with Jesus that it made me curious. I wondered why they were always so happy!

Between the ages of 18 and 30, I was quite crazy! I smoked pot, tried a few other drugs, drank beer, goofed off, and in general never thought much about spirituality. Well...I can't say never! My friends and I would sit around in the park at night and discuss God and reality and Pyramid Power and UFOs and mystical feelings and Rock Music. Then I began to become athletic! It was funny, really....because I was never in very good shape my whole life so it was strange to have started riding my Mountain Bike and actually see myself getting in shape! As it turned out, I rode 5000 miles in 2 years! Then something happened!

At Age 32, this girl I knew invited me to church. I thought she was nuts but I took her up on it. Church was weird. People were so darn happy! (It looked almost phony, but it also looked as if it could be real.)

Then....on January 9th, 1993 I met the Holy Spirit. Since that time, I have been aware of GOD or what I believe to be God influencing my life in ways never done before that time. For a couple of years, I went along with the indoctrination of conservative dogmatic ( see Dogma ) and oftentimes ungrounded beliefs of organized religion. It was a Charismatic Non-Denominational Church and it did get a wee bit weird in there at times!

Some days they would be waving prayer hankies around in the air. Some days they would be on the floor in prayer, while some folks spoke in the gibberish of tongues. Sometimes there would be strange Altar Calls where people would get slain in the Spirit and all such ritual and exclusivity which characterizes much of charismatic or fundamentalist Christianity today.

If you watch T.B.N. or Daystar Christian TV, you will see the extreme commercialized version of the type of Christian pablum that I was exposed to. Despite all of that, I still had that unique and personal belief and feeling that God was with me and that there was more to the world around me than the media, the educational system, and everyday interaction and experience with skepticism and folks who questioned organized religion could provide.

When I first came to EvC, I was quite a fundamentalist and a charismatic who never really questioned nor chose to define what it is that I believed. I was quite content to be uninformed and unenlightened as pertaining to the secular world and the scientific method of examining everyday reality. (some will tell you that I am still that way, but I have come a long ways in the last three years! ;) )

Before we go on, it is your turn now, Mr. Amen! Tell me how you grew up to believe the things that you do....give me an idea of your religious upbringing! :)

Edited by Phat, : added features!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 4 of 16 (444831)
12-31-2007 2:08 AM


<{-My Past-}>
as you request Phat, here is a taste of my past.

When I was 1st brought into this world, I was cared for by a mother,father,and brother. I was raised to follow the beliefs of my parents, but I was not fully nurtured into Christianity by my parents.
As most religious families, I went to Boca Glades Baptist Church, thus I've always attended it with my family and friends. During my educational stage, I seemed to favor a president, this was the 1st President of the United States of America. George Washington is his name.

When I finally decided to learn more about this 1st President of which I favored so very much, I indeed found out that not he alone has the same beliefs as I. This was a great discovery for me, thus it also allowed my beliefs to flourish even more within time. It seems I found that History is a key to some religious beliefs. I believe in the past[unlike some who believe in the future of mankind].

If you haven't noticed Phat, I'm like most Christians who have a frustrating bitter beef with politics,laws, and well almost all of society together. I have a darker side, which I try to help remain hidden from others, but if so I'll explain it later if you'd like to hear about it.

I stand up for all that is good and right in the eyes of My God!
If I show anger when arguing my side of the argument, wither or not I try to show mercy for the person I'm facing off against, I do intend to weaken their foolishness and see if it has them running for the hills. In a religious argument against ones belief, each opponent may try to weaken each other to a point where 1 is so down on their defense, the other will decide to strike a final blow, therefor leaving this person helpless and wondering what is it he shall now believe in. I use to debate like that, but as I've grown up, I learned how to understand the real meaning of a Debate.

Well Phat thats somethings about my past, but if you want more, I'll indeed provide you with more. My next post will be about: My Present.
Which is about what I've been doing[religious wise]this year. :eek:

sincerely your, Amen.


"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
[Matthew 27:46]

"He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."
[JOB 41:34]

"You feel the last bit of breath leaving their body. You're looking into their eyes. A person in that situation is God!" -Ted Bundy


Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-31-2007 8:36 AM Am5n has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 7303
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 5 of 16 (444873)
12-31-2007 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Am5n
12-31-2007 2:08 AM


Re: <{-My Past-}>
Amen writes:

I was raised to follow the beliefs of my parents, but I was not fully nurtured into Christianity by my parents.

Do you believe that people are nurtured into Christianity?
Amen writes:

When I finally decided to learn more about (George Washington) I indeed found out that not he alone has the same beliefs as I. This was a great discovery for me, thus it also allowed my beliefs to flourish even more within time. It seems I found that History is a key to some religious beliefs.

Interesting. ;) So you say that George Washington was an inspiration for you? How so?
Amen writes:

I have a darker side, which I try to help remain hidden from others, but if so I'll explain it later if you'd like to hear about it.

Well....We all have our dark sides, and it may be best not to explain them to each other just yet. They will be evident to others anyway if they become a problem! :)

Amen writes:

I stand up for all that is good and right in the eyes of My God!

If I show anger when arguing my side of the argument, ....I do intend to weaken their foolishness and see if it has them running for the hills.


It can be fun to debate other people. I suppose that for me at least, the question in my mind is what I wish to inform them about and whether I feel it necessary to attempt to teach or whether it is better to attempt to learn from my ideological opponents. You may have heard the old saying:
quote:
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
Sun-tzu--Chinese general & military strategist (~400 BC)

Amen writes:

My next post will be about: My Present.

Sounds good. I have yet to make an official Belief Statement as I am unsure exactly and precisely what I believe, but perhaps this thread will help me articulate.

I still believe in One God...not a bunch of different Gods nor relative gods. To me, there may well be many paths up the mountain, but there is only one entity that you meet at the top no matter which path you take up that Mountain.

We have a lot of time in this thread...so chill and take it slow, as will I.

Edited by Phat, : fixed quote


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Am5n, posted 12-31-2007 2:08 AM Am5n has responded

Replies to this message:
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Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 6 of 16 (444926)
12-31-2007 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
12-31-2007 8:36 AM


Re: <{-My Past-}>
Phat writes:

Do you believe that people are nurtured into Christianity?


indeed I do Phat. As long as I've been alive, thats how many religious families,communities,and organizations work. Its easy to nurture a child into ones own belief, but as I've somewhat explained already, it is indeed "only" that the parents have the right to nurture their children into a community of their own beliefs, though this may only be of my beliefs, wither or not the parents have the right to be the only ones who shall nurture the religious beliefs of their child.
Phat writes:

Interesting. So you say that George Washington was an inspiration for you?

Yes Sir Mr.Phat! I was indeed inspired by what George Washington did & accomplished.
Phat writes:

How so?


Well for example, lets look back on: July 9, 1755 The French and Indian War. As you may already know or probably should know about the Europeans "Warfare strategies", These strategies were really foolish.
"Quick, let your aim be certain and he dies," the chief commanded.
The warriors - a mix of Ottawa,Huron,and Chippewa tribes men leveled their rifles at the last officer on horseback. Round after round was aimed at this one man. Twice the officer's horse was shot out from under him. Twice he grabbed a horse left idle when a fellow officer had been shot down. Ten,twelve,thirteen rounds were fired by the sharpshooters. Still, the officer remained unhurt. The native warriors stared at him in disbelief. Their rifles seldom missed their mark. The chief suddenly realized that a mighty power must be shielding this man. "Stop firing" he commanded. "This one is under the special protection of the Great Spirit." A brave standing near by added, "I had seventeen clear shots at him.. and after all that could not bring him to the ground. This man was not born to be killed by a bullet." -Under God: Bulletproof, page 11.

Phat writes:

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
Sun-tzu--Chinese general & military strategist (~400 BC)


I know that quote, its a very good quote too.

sincerely yours, Amen.

Edited by Amen., : No reason given.


"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
[Matthew 27:46]

"He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."
[JOB 41:34]

"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
[Matthew 18:8]
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
[Matthew 18:9]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-31-2007 8:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 01-01-2008 2:34 PM Am5n has responded
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-02-2008 6:39 AM Am5n has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 7303
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 7 of 16 (445221)
01-01-2008 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Am5n
12-31-2007 1:18 PM


Every Breath You Take
Amen writes:

Its easy to nurture a child into ones own belief, but as I've somewhat explained already, it is indeed "only" that the parents have the right to nurture their children into a community of their own beliefs, though this may only be of my beliefs, wither or not the parents have the right to be the only ones who shall nurture the religious beliefs of their child.

Thats a rather ambiguous sentence, Amen.

Let me ask you some questions, ok?

1) Must a person be saved? If so, why? What exactly is it we are saved from?

2) As a young Baptist kid, what is your mission in life according to you? To God? To your parents?

I also want to let you read this email that I got. Let me repost it here for you:

SoulFuel writes:

I have a New Year's resolution for you that is challenging, life changing, and one that will not only transform you, but it will impact the world around you as well. In fact, I don't dare you to take this one, I triple dog dare you!

It comes from the Apostle Paul, and it forms the cornerstone of the entire Christian life:

"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31)

In other words (to paraphrase The Police), every breath you take, every move you make, make God look good in your corner of the world.

That's what doing everything to God's 'glory' means. The word 'glory' here refers to the shining presence of Christ - so it means that your choices either let the light of Jesus out, or it hides it in a cloud of sin.

It means that everyone who knows you're a Christian is watching you and forming an opinion about God based on the way you act, because your everyday choices are painting a picture of God that is on display for all the world to see.

BTW I saw your church website.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Am5n, posted 12-31-2007 1:18 PM Am5n has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Am5n, posted 01-03-2008 4:39 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 7303
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 8 of 16 (445409)
01-02-2008 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Am5n
12-31-2007 1:18 PM


Deal Or No Deal
I noticed that you started another topic and as I was browsing through it, I saw this Link from a Lutheran Church Website. Quite informative, by the way. ;)

Just out of curiosity, did you use a search engine to find that link or is it a source of information that you previously used?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Am5n, posted 12-31-2007 1:18 PM Am5n has responded

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Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 9 of 16 (445729)
01-03-2008 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
01-01-2008 2:34 PM


Re: Every Breath You Take
Phat writes:

Let me ask you some questions, ok?


Okey dokey!

Phat writes:

1) Must a person be saved? If so, why? What exactly is it we are saved from?

Good question. A person is only to be saved from a world of confusion, its not a must, well unless your religious belief includes the knowledge of The spiritual Realm,Demonology,and knowing there is a Fiery kingdom, where many are going to be condemned to Eternal Damnation! But! if you or anyone else doesn't believe that.. well then it might not be a top priority to them... which leaves me to be :confused:

But as always, there seem to be Different groups apart of Christianity. Honestly.. I have nothing personal against The Catholic Community, but they really consider every baby in their community must be baptized[aka "Saved"], which you should already know that I was raised by 2 Baptist parents, but do you know the difference on how the The Baptist Church baptizes Christians and how The Catholic Church baptizes Christians?

Phat writes:

2) As a young Baptist kid, what is your mission in life according to you? To God? To your parents?


I've been pondering with that exact question for 2 yrs already.. but God is giving me a little bit at a time, so therefor I remain patient with God.

Phat writes:

BTW I saw your church website.


Oh really? I never saw your church website. :rolleyes:
Would you like me to?

Sincerely yours, Amen.

Edited by Amen., : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 01-01-2008 2:34 PM Phat has responded

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Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 10 of 16 (445731)
01-03-2008 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
01-02-2008 6:39 AM


Re: Deal Or No Deal
Phat writes:

Just out of curiosity, did you use a search engine to find that link or is it a source of information that you previously used?


I was using wikipedia and was reading about their Definition of Christianity, then I clicked on a couple links and BOOM!:frazzled:
I stumbled upon that site an decided to use it for the Deal or No Deal Topic.

sincerely yours, Amen.

Edited by Amen., : No reason given.


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 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-02-2008 6:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 7303
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 11 of 16 (446449)
01-06-2008 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Am5n
01-03-2008 4:39 PM


Re: Every Breath You Take
Amen writes:

A person is only to be saved from a world of confusion, its not a must, well unless your religious belief includes the knowledge of The spiritual Realm,Demonology,and knowing there is a Fiery kingdom, where many are going to be condemned to Eternal Damnation! But! if you or anyone else doesn't believe that.. well then it might not be a top priority to them..

Salvation is not at the top of everyones list, and some folks even believe that salvation is irrelevant.
Much of the Christianity I was brought up in emphasized belief as a prerequisite for salvation, whereas the Eastern Orthodox tend to believe in living out the salvation that we all already have through communion with the church.(read that Wiki article on Grace...its quite informative.

I guess the point I want to make is that there are lots of brands of Christianity that I was never exposed to, and its a bit pompous of me to claim that only one brand is the right one. (I do, however, emphasize a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ as a cornerstone for any Christian.)

Amen writes:

I never saw your church website.
Would you like me to?

Knock yourself out, Amen! :D
Phats Church

Some more basic questions for you: (Just answer them briefly and honestly, and we can go from here)

  • Is the Spirit of God in everyone or with everyone? Why or why not? (Use your own words...don't go google something up!:rolleyes: )

  • Can a person lose their salvation? Why or why not?

  • Is it more important to act all shiny happy religious all the time or is it more important to be real with your friends and the people you meet on the day to day?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Am5n, posted 01-03-2008 4:39 PM Am5n has responded

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  • Am5n 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 2277 days)
    Posts: 106
    From: New York City, New York, United States
    Joined: 02-21-2007


    Message 12 of 16 (448704)
    01-14-2008 9:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
    01-06-2008 11:41 AM


    Re: Every Breath You Take
    phat writes:

    Is the Spirit of God in everyone or with everyone?


    I consider the Spirit of God to be with or in anyone He choses.
    phat writes:

    Can a person lose their salvation?


    I really don't know... can a person keep their salvation and be condemned to eternal damnation?
    phat writes:

    Is it more important to act all shiny happy religious all the time or is it more important to be real with your friends and the people you meet on the day to day?


    God made me the way I am today, I don't believe a person should hide what they believe.

    During my youthful years at school, I was bullied and the other boys called me a Fag, why? Because I treated all the women around me, alot better then my male peers. I never had a relationship with the opposite sex, though I never had a girl as my friend either.

    moral to this story:
    If people keep pushing you down, what else can you do about it? not much, just keep picking yourself up and keep on living for God.

    sincerely yours, Amen.

    Edited by Amen., : eh?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Phat, posted 01-06-2008 11:41 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by Phat, posted 01-17-2008 6:34 PM Am5n has responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 7303
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 13 of 16 (449345)
    01-17-2008 6:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Am5n
    01-14-2008 9:30 PM


    Re: Every Breath You Take
    Amen writes:

    God made me the way I am today, I don't believe a person should hide what they believe.

    I agree. To be honest, Im not entirely concrete on what it is I do believe...deep down...and what I don't believe.

    Jar always tells me to question my beliefs, for it is through questioning that we develop our beliefs.

    I do this to some extent, yet I wont let go of dogma and of some beliefs which I feel very strongly about.

    I have let go of the idea that the earth is 6000 years old...or thereabouts. I suppose GOD could make it that way regardless of what scientific evidence suggests, but why would an Omnipotant Creator choose to fool us?

    Moreover....why is science a bad thing? Is it not the best critical analysis that humans are capable of? Should we toss away our intellects and simply accept belief?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Am5n, posted 01-14-2008 9:30 PM Am5n has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Am5n 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 2277 days)
    Posts: 106
    From: New York City, New York, United States
    Joined: 02-21-2007


    Message 14 of 16 (449671)
    01-18-2008 5:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
    01-17-2008 6:34 PM


    Re: Every Breath You Take
    Phat writes:

    I have let go of the idea that the earth is 6000 years old...or thereabouts. I suppose GOD could make it that way regardless of what scientific evidence suggests, but why would an Omnipotant Creator choose to fool us?

    I'm sorry but, can you rephrase the question?

    Phat writes:

    Moreover....why is science a bad thing?


    Science isn't a bad thing, it's actually a good thing, but it is wrong not to give God and Christianity the credit since the origin of science came only from God and Christianity.
    Phat writes:

    Is it not the best critical analysis that humans are capable of? Should we toss away our intellects and simply accept belief?


    take a look at this link:http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/science_origin.html
    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 7303
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 15 of 16 (450791)
    01-23-2008 8:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Am5n
    01-18-2008 5:46 PM


    The Subject Of Authority
    I saw the recent issue that you had with Jar and the comments that were made by all concerned. Ironically, this is on-topic regarding my God and Your God.

    Before I start, I want to encourage you to submit to the discipline, even if you think it unfair. The reason is that it will be good for your patience and your ability to deal with emotions. OK?

    My next question is this:

    NIV writes:

    Prov 1:7

    7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
    but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

    As Christians, is it wrong for us to challenge human authority that we consider to be autocratic and unfair?

    Now may be the perfect time for you to tell me about your "dark side". :)

    Finally, I will close with this scripture:

    NIV writes:

    Rev 3:19-20
    19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

    Sincerely Yours,
    Phat ;)

    (I have toleave and go to my church group now, but will reply to you before tomorrow. Hang in there and dont let your emotions boil over! )(Tell me about your dark side. :D

    Edited by Phat, : added


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