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Author Topic:   Anyone else notice this pattern?
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 61 of 318 (447626)
01-10-2008 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
01-08-2008 4:16 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
Therefore, the discussion about ongoing is an ongone discussion.
quote:
The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.
You are so right, there is nothing endearing about a controvertist. However, if one is regularly exposed to him and his ploys, acute awareness of such ploys is a must. You should try it. It puts hair on your chest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 01-08-2008 4:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 01-10-2008 10:54 AM ThreeDogs has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 62 of 318 (447646)
01-10-2008 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by ThreeDogs
01-08-2008 4:07 PM


Re: Clarity in conveying an idea
LinearAq writes:
Ken Ham does very well at writing his ideas and performs well when communicating to laymen of both sides. Many of the "scientists" at Answers in Genesis" are also skilled writers. I have seen them talk or write loops around those detractors that they deign to include in their discussions.
Caveat: Anyone with a well thought out question or comment in opposition gets ignored or, if it occurs in public, gets side tracked with what Ham and his ilk think is a nifty little logic counter punch to avoid answering the question.
To which, ThreeDogs responds:
The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.
I am at a bit of a loss to identify the subject, to whom you are referring. It seems you are saying that Ham is a controvertist based on your second sentence. However, it is possible you are saying that I am inclined to fuel controversy. Perhaps clarity in written expression is not your forte`.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 4:07 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 63 of 318 (447652)
01-10-2008 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ThreeDogs
01-10-2008 9:06 AM


Re: Working At Improvement
ThreeDogs writes:
You are so right, there is nothing endearing about a controvertist.
I didn't say that. The topic isn't about the content of posts. It's about the style.
I find your gibberish odd in a thread about style. Are you the love-child of IamJoseph and tesla?
However, if one is regularly exposed to him and his ploys, acute awareness of such ploys is a must. You should try it.
You should try, occasionally, informing your audience what your pronouns refer to.
It puts hair on your chest.
That might adversely effect my income from Internet porn.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-10-2008 9:06 AM ThreeDogs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-10-2008 12:00 PM ringo has replied

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 64 of 318 (447674)
01-10-2008 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
01-10-2008 10:54 AM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
That might adversely effect my income from Internet porn.
The word is affect. You're on welfare, huh?
What my pronouns refer to? Yikes!
Edited by ThreeDogs, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 01-10-2008 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 01-10-2008 12:32 PM ThreeDogs has not replied
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 01-11-2008 3:32 AM ThreeDogs has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 65 of 318 (447684)
01-10-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ThreeDogs
01-10-2008 12:00 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
ThreeDogs writes:
What my pronouns refer to? Yikes!
Sentences. Egad?
Really, if you don't want to come across as yet another creationist empty-head, you'd do better to write in plain English instead of trying to be Mr. Pedantic.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-10-2008 12:00 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2008 1:05 PM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 66 of 318 (447687)
01-10-2008 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taz
01-09-2008 7:59 PM


In fact, I can't remember the last time I took my car or my wife's car to a mechanic for something as routine as an oil change. I do all of that myself. Heck, I even rotate my own tires.
What ever made you think you were one of those who can express themselves well? People who lose their temper often are not among the ranks of people expressing themselves well.
I agree. Perhaps NASA should have hired "dumb" people to plan for the missions to other planets. Heck, let's hire "dumb" people to design the next kick-ass passenger jet.
What do street smarts and common sense have to do with designing a jet or going to the moon? Talk about missed points.
Tell you another thing. I belong to a R/C plane club, and there is 100 members. Most of them are engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc. When they need someone to maiden there plane, they call me. Most of them can't actually fly the dam things. As a matter of fact a professor of aeronautics has asked me to maiden his UAV he designed and built with his students (video to follow when it happens). I said ok, but I made him change his plane around. Seems he designed it with too much wing loading, and the thing would never fly.
It's not that education doesn't impress me, or that it is not important. It's just that stupid people will always be stupid I guess.
My whole point is that not everyone can be good at everything, and the way you express yourself in writing may not have anything to do with how smart you are, or if you are right or wrong. Like you said everyone has a niche in society. Too make this world a better place, would be to accept that, and try to read in between the lines a bit, and give people the benefit of the doubt. And not try to point out any "patterns". Nator's patterns do not mean a thing, and she is just guessing. This is not the result of some scientific study, it's just her poopy opinion. Maybe all the people who are creationists, and can write well, just don't bother with this forum. I mean even Jesus walked away.
No. We're saying you guys stick with the street smarts and leave the academic stuff to us.
That attitude is pure bullshit, and a loser one at that. Any engineer who doesn't listen to his laymen will soon find himself at the wrong end of a bad design. No amount of "academic stuff" will ever get us were we want to be, or increase knowledge. Sooner or later someone has to be able to put it together to see if it works. I know plenty of "engineers" who don't know their ass from there elbow, and plenty of laymen who try to design stuff, and practically put peoples lives in danger. The beauty should be in working together, a trait I never see you exert.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 01-09-2008 7:59 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Taz, posted 01-10-2008 4:04 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 71 by nator, posted 01-10-2008 6:37 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 67 of 318 (447688)
01-10-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ringo
01-10-2008 12:32 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
There's only one thing wrong with you quoting me. It is a missed quote, taken out of context. So while your trying to be "cute" you are only displaying a lack of understand and comprehension.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 01-10-2008 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 01-10-2008 3:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 318 (447718)
01-10-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by riVeRraT
01-10-2008 1:05 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
riVeRraT writes:
There's only one thing wrong with you quoting me. It is a missed quote, taken out of context.
The quote:
quote:
If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?
is apt, whether it was what you meant or not. I comprehend quite well what you said. Whether or not you said what you meant is your problem - which may be close to the topic.
So while your trying to be "cute"....
I was born cute - no "trying" involved.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2008 1:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 12:10 PM ringo has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 69 of 318 (447723)
01-10-2008 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by riVeRraT
01-10-2008 1:03 PM


riverrat writes:
moi writes:
In fact, I can't remember the last time I took my car or my wife's car to a mechanic for something as routine as an oil change. I do all of that myself. Heck, I even rotate my own tires.
What ever made you think you were one of those who can express themselves well? People who lose their temper often are not among the ranks of people expressing themselves well.
Riverrat, as much as I appreciate you responding to me, I'm not sure how your reply has anything to do with the quoted text. Does it make any sense to you?
But to be fair, I have never said that I can express myself better than most others. In fact, I have said this many times now, that I am not very articulate, and because of this I try to be as clear as I can by writing out a thought the way I would say it out loud. In other words, I write the way I talk.
And no, I hardly ever got good grades in English classes.
What do street smarts and common sense have to do with designing a jet or going to the moon? Talk about missed points.
But riverrat, that's exactly the point. It's people who claim to have the street smarts who always seem to try to tell scientists what to do. Ask yourself this question. Are you a biologist? Are many creationists biologists?
As I have stated many times before, the source of my frustration is having to deal with "if gravity is real how come rocks don't orbit mountains" on a semi-regular basis. Sure, the answer is simple, but if you don't have the basics already it will take a while to explain.
Tell you another thing. I belong to a R/C plane club, and there is 100 members. Most of them are engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc. When they need someone to maiden there plane, they call me. Most of them can't actually fly the dam things. As a matter of fact a professor of aeronautics has asked me to maiden his UAV he designed and built with his students (video to follow when it happens). I said ok, but I made him change his plane around. Seems he designed it with too much wing loading, and the thing would never fly.
Oh, I have no doubt of that.
But again, ask yourself this question. Are you a biologist? Are many creationists biologists? Are many creationists physicists? We don't try to tell you which wrench to use on what. Why is it that you people are trying to tell us what's scientific and what's not?
It's not that education doesn't impress me, or that it is not important. It's just that stupid people will always be stupid I guess.
I never said education should impress anyone. In fact, some of the people have the most respect for never went to college.
It's that in society we each have our niche, riverrat. We don't try to tell you which wrench to use on what and please don't try to tell us what's scientific and what's not.
My whole point is that not everyone can be good at everything, and the way you express yourself in writing may not have anything to do with how smart you are, or if you are right or wrong.
I agree. Take a look at our very own Brad McFall. I've tried many times to understand some of his more complex messages. I've even tried to read them while I was drunk.
But then again, it is a general trend that we see creationists who can't write very well present the most bogus "evidence" for creation. Ok, we can say all we want that how well you express yourself doesn't necessarily reflect your intelligence, but the fact remains that we do observe on a regular basis that people who can't express themselves very well are often people who present questions like "if people came from monkeys how come there are still monkeys around?"
Surely, even you can see why we are frustrated.
Any engineer who doesn't listen to his laymen will soon find himself at the wrong end of a bad design.
This why most engineers I've met are also creationists?
No amount of "academic stuff" will ever get us were we want to be, or increase knowledge. Sooner or later someone has to be able to put it together to see if it works. I know plenty of "engineers" who don't know their ass from there elbow, and plenty of laymen who try to design stuff, and practically put peoples lives in danger. The beauty should be in working together, a trait I never see you exert.
Again, why is it that NASA hire scientists and engineers to design plantary missions rather than street smarts people?
I've said this many times. I really really appreciate hands-on inquiries. I fix my own car, rat. I change my own oil. I intalled my own wooden floor. I built my own computer. I change my own tires. I do all of that and more. But every once in a while I still have to go to a mechanic.
What does this tell us? It tells us that we experience is just as important as book smarts.
Ok, let's take it a step further. Creationists want us to teach the literal 6 day creation and noah's flood in the science classroom. Experience is more important than science, right? Have any of you creationists seen god? Were any of you guys there when god wiped out the world with a world wide flood? I'm sure you guys have lots of experience on how noah was able to feed all the animal onboard for a year. I'm sure you guys have lots of experience on how the marsupials were able to get to Australia from the Middle East after the flood.
Surely, even you can see why we are frustrated. Have you ever gone out on a fossil hunt? Why are you trying to tell geologists what's science and what's not? Have you performed genetics experiments? Why are you trying to tell geneticists what to do? Have you done some hands-on on rocket science or astronomical observations? Why are you trying to tell physicists that they're a bunch of dumbasses?
Surely, you can see why we are frustrated.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2008 1:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 12:47 PM Taz has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 70 of 318 (447755)
01-10-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by riVeRraT
01-09-2008 7:39 PM


quote:
I'll tell you what pattern I did notice, that supposedly higher educated, rational thinkers rarely know which way to turn a screw driver, can't hang a picture, or change their oil.
Having spent the last 15 years hanging out with many, many science PhD candidates and professional scientists, the opposite has been true in my experience.
quote:
I've noticed there is a big difference in talking about how the world works, and actually working on it.
I don't think so at all.
I think that the more you understand and think about how the world works the better you are at working on it.
Of course, the stuff you are talking about has little to do with education more to do with physical coordination and experience.
I'll bet you wouldn't know how to design an FMRI experiment to test a theory about a particular aspect of working memory and how to analyse the data, but that's because you haven't gone to graduate school and gotten a PhD in Cognitive Psychology and therefore haven't been trained to do that. My husband has, and that's why he can, and has, done that numerous times.
quote:
I've noticed so called "dumb" people, have more street smarts and common sense than most "educated" people.
Again, that hasn't been my experience at all. I have spent the last 15 years working in the specialty food/restaurant/grocery industry. The educational backgrounds of the people I've worked with have varied widely, from people with PhD's, Masters and MD's to technical school degrees to high school diplomas to dropouts who've been in prison and/or rehab for most of their lives.
The "dumb" ones were the ones more likely to have spent time in prison and to have gotten mixed up with drugs. Obviously, they couldn't have had much "street smarts" or "common sense" if they got mixed up with that kind of stuff.
The smart ones, regardless of educational background, were always trying to get more education.
quote:
Autism kids are an example of just how people are good in some areas, and not good in others.
Huh?
quote:
In other words what you've noticed is just life, and it doesn't mean shit. That's why the pattern exists. Should I go around calling all people who do not know how to turn a screw driver idiots?
The difference is, rat, that we don't spend 12 years of school taking classes on using screwdrivers.
Furthermore, our ability to communicate our ideas effectively in written form is a very good indicator of how orderly our thinking is and if we have mastered the use of our language.
Not everyone will be a brilliant writer, of course, but it is shameful how truly poorly some people write in this country. We already know that sub-standard school systems turn out illiterate people so it isn't that much of a stretch to figure that it will also turn out people who are really poor writers.
What I'd like to know, though, is why so many of those terrible writers on this board seem to be religious and/or Creationists?
quote:
Or should I be fair, understanding, open minded, and willing to see both sides of a story and give the benefit of the doubt, and even help them to turn the dam screwdriver?
I've tried to help you learn to write more clearly and to learn to use the correct contraction of "you are" (you're/your), but you have only resented it. I can't help someone who doesn't want to improve their skills.
quote:
It's like your saying to us, only stupid people believe in God, and smart people are the ones that actually know what is going on.
No.
I am saying that a lot of Creationists are poor writers.
Apparently, you have a problem with comprehension as well as expression.
There are lots of smart people who believe in God, but I think people can't be all that smart and also a Creationist. At the very least, a smart Creationist has to struggle with a lot of cognitive dissonance and willful ignorance.
quote:
I fear not because I know God will show you different one day nator, as He did me. There's that chip I was talking about (bluegenes). The higher up you put yourself on that pedestal, the longer it is to fall.
Whatever, rat.
I am not ashamed of having good writing and communication skills. I think that this sort of anti-intellecualism and fear and resentment of education and intelligence can only be damaging to our country.
quote:
Long live God, Nascar, beer, 3 wheelers, and people who can't spell who have no teeth. end rant.
Huh?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2008 7:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 01-11-2008 3:41 AM nator has not replied
 Message 81 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:05 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 71 of 318 (447770)
01-10-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by riVeRraT
01-10-2008 1:03 PM


quote:
What ever made you think you were one of those who can express themselves well?
When Taz explains something, I can understand him just fine.
I don't reply to any of his points with "Huh?" like I have to do with you all the time.
quote:
People who lose their temper often are not among the ranks of people expressing themselves well.
Well, I suppose that means you express yourself the least well of just about anyone on this board.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2008 1:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:23 PM nator has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 318 (447840)
01-11-2008 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ThreeDogs
01-10-2008 12:00 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
Just a footnote, ThreeDogs. When I first came to Evc, some of the conversations around here frustrated me to no end. I was challenged in my thinking and I thought to myself that surely I was right and they were all on crack!
If you can stand the intensity and yet be polite enough to the other members with whom you disagree, you will eventually like it here!
We certainly like humorous debates, conducted in good fun and with respect for each other! Stick around!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-10-2008 12:00 PM ThreeDogs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-11-2008 11:07 AM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 318 (447842)
01-11-2008 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by nator
01-10-2008 6:11 PM


Protest against intellectual elitism
Nator, in response to rats rant writes:
huh?
He is ranting, Nator. He is protesting the intellectual elitism that has frustrated many a Bible Thumper. In fact, knowing Rat as I do, I'll bet he is thinking of this scripture: 1 Corinthians 1:19-20
Personally, I agree with you to some extent, Nator. I have worked with the smart and the dumb (if I dare judge people in that regard) and the level of education has not always mattered.
I myself am a High School graduate with some college, though I have yet to graduate. The choices that people make, and the willingness to have an open and inquisitive mind versus a closed dogmatic mind go far in determining their future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 01-10-2008 6:11 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-11-2008 11:10 AM Phat has replied

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 74 of 318 (447897)
01-11-2008 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
01-11-2008 3:32 AM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
Just a footnote, ThreeDogs. When I first came to Evc, some of the conversations around here frustrated me to no end. I was challenged in my thinking and I thought to myself that surely I was right and they were all on crack!
If you can stand the intensity and yet be polite enough to the other members with whom you disagree, you will eventually like it here!
Thanks for sharing your experience. I did quite a bit of reading here before I signed up. One poster stands out with unabashed bias against creationists and provokes the observation of being anti-human rights. I felt it needed to be addressed.
I don't mind intensity, I'm short-voiced and that is grounds. I feel no need for change. I expect adults of a certain intelligence register to speak past their prejudices. Ha, ha!
quote:
We certainly like humorous debates, conducted in good fun and with respect for each other! Stick around!
Phat, what were you thinking? Do you want me to consider the term bible thumper to be respectful? (See your following post)
I'll be here now and then, when I think I can contribute something to understanding. My main concerns are the preponderance of the intelligentsia to be convinced of their magnificence, when they mostly regurgitate stuff that was regurgitated to them and none exhibit original thought. If they have one, they would not let on where Dr. Jock Crock can steal it and claim it for his own.
It's one thing to be challenged in your thinking, it's another to give up who you are because someone uses your insecurities against you. See you later.
Oh, how I love Denver. The foothills in Spring and the larks trilling their music ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 01-11-2008 3:32 AM Phat has not replied

ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 75 of 318 (447898)
01-11-2008 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
01-11-2008 3:41 AM


Re: Protest against intellectual elitism
quote:
Bible Thumper
You meant it in a respectful way, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 01-11-2008 3:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-11-2008 11:16 AM ThreeDogs has not replied

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