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Author Topic:   Anyone else notice this pattern?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 318 (447901)
01-11-2008 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ThreeDogs
01-11-2008 11:10 AM


Re: Protest against intellectual elitism
Of course.
You have to understand that I have "seen" the supernatural. I see the reasoning and intensity behind fervant belief and yet I also seethe argument from the other side which considers it all unprovable. I am not afraid that my belief cannot be proven. (I used to be!)
I have to respect the education and experience of the scientists. The only other alternative would be to embrace the belief that Satan was deceiving the minds of unbelievers....and I can turn that around on the church and say that it is us who are being deceived, much as we claim the Jews were the first time around!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-11-2008 11:10 AM ThreeDogs has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 318 (447905)
01-11-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
01-11-2008 11:16 AM


Re: Protest against intellectual elitism
Phat writes:
....and I can turn that around on the church and say that it is us who are being deceived, much as we claim the Jews were the first time around!
You just might have yourself a topic there, buddy.
Call it "The Modern Pharisees", maybe. Ask why today's Christians think they have the wisdom of God, why they think they're the spiritual/intellectual elite - contrary to appearances.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-11-2008 11:16 AM Phat has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 78 of 318 (447917)
01-11-2008 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
01-10-2008 3:05 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
Whether or not you said what you meant is your problem
It is close to the topic, that is why I brought it up. I've noticed a pattern with people who, quote "express themselves well in writing" seem to not be able to understand others writings, unless they agree on things, and even then it is shaky. I know it is not me, because many people understand perfectly what I write. On occasion there is a question or two, which is fine. We are all prone to leave out a thought or two once in awhile.
Which brings up a thought. Many of these so called "good writers" seem not to understand the bible in context, and all the time take things out of context. But I know that is something that only God can help them with.
My quote, was on the subject of multiple conversion experiences, not a single event, of which I have experienced. So your claim of people trying to tell for years is invalid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 01-10-2008 3:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 1:03 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 89 by nator, posted 01-11-2008 6:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 79 of 318 (447930)
01-11-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Taz
01-10-2008 4:04 PM


Riverrat, as much as I appreciate you responding to me, I'm not sure how your reply has anything to do with the quoted text. Does it make any sense to you?
You seemed to jump in there and say "hey, but I can turn a screw driver" which is in direct response to the pattern I noticed. As if to say, "I can articulate well, and turn a screw driver."
If you meant different, then I did not get it.
But riverrat, that's exactly the point. It's people who claim to have the street smarts who always seem to try to tell scientists what to do. Ask yourself this question. Are you a biologist? Are many creationists biologists?
I will try to explain it again. People with street smarts, are not smarter, or dumber than people with academic smarts. Nator is trying to point out the creationists cannot articulate well, which hints at them being "dumb", hence that is why they believe in God.
People with street smarts should not ever tell a rocket scientist what to do with his trade. But they can see clearly when something is not right, and can give feedback when appropriate.
Scientist, or biologist, should not be telling people there is no God.
Fair enough?
I do not know if creationist are biologists. I don't even care about I.D. or creationism. I believe in God by faith for other reasons, and I take it on faith that He created the world. How that all happened, I do not know, or pretend to know.
I do know that I would never go see a creationist, if I needed a tumor removed. Only for prayer.
Are many creationists physicists? We don't try to tell you which wrench to use on what. Why is it that you people are trying to tell us what's scientific and what's not?
This to me seems like a bad attitude. You see, many "mechanics" need to know the engineering side of things, so that they can accurately diagnose, and repair. While the engineer, doesn't seem to need to know how to turn a screw driver. If an engineer doesn't know how to turn a screw driver, or how difficult it is to get into a spot and actually turn the dam thing, then how is he going to design stuff to be worked on? Don't you even know where science started?
I do not include myself in this description, as owning my own business, I design, build, install and repair all that I work on. You can bet when I install something, it is put in a way that can be easily repaired.
As far as things being scientific or not, I am entitled to my opinion, as I use science for my trade, and read many publications, and watch shows. I also notice how whats is correct today, is not correct tomorrow, when it comes to science. Almost every night is a new a revolutionary discovery that will rewrite the science books. So it really doesn't matter what I think or say, cause it does not matter what science thinks or says, it is constantly changing. This statement is not putting science down, just putting it into perspective.
But then again, it is a general trend that we see creationists who can't write very well present the most bogus "evidence" for creation.
That is because there is a group of people out there who may possibly know and love God, and want to spread the message. In their eagerness to try and understand the Lord, they are mislead by creation science, and then jump in here and want to "set the record straight." It is that desire to spread the gospel that brings these people around. I was one of them. Instead of leaving though, I remained open minded and used the information in these forums to further educate myself, improve my writing skills, and have a better understanding of God, love, and science. It is funny, because in here I may "preach the gospel. or share about God, where as in church I talk about science to people, and just what role science should play in religion. (basically nothing).
What does this tell us? It tells us that we experience is just as important as book smarts.
Now you are getting it.
Ok, let's take it a step further. Creationists want us to teach the literal 6 day creation and noah's flood in the science classroom.
Which has nothing to do with the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Taz, posted 01-10-2008 4:04 PM Taz has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 318 (447935)
01-11-2008 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 12:10 PM


riVeRraT writes:
I know it is not me, because many people understand perfectly what I write.
Name six.
Many of these so called "good writers" seem not to understand the bible in context, and all the time take things out of context.
You're welcome to bring your Doctor of Screwology to the Bible Study forum.
My quote, was on the subject of multiple conversion experiences, not a single event, of which I have experienced. So your claim of people trying to tell for years is invalid.
Hint: One of the keys to writing clarity is anticipating what your words will mean to the reader. Knowing what's in your own mind isn't enough. Communication hinges on being able to trigger the same thoughts in other minds.
When you said:
quote:
If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?
you were saying more than you thought you were saying.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 12:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:13 PM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 81 of 318 (447936)
01-11-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by nator
01-10-2008 6:11 PM


Having spent the last 15 years hanging out with many, many science PhD candidates and professional scientists, the opposite has been true in my experience.
I call Bullshit. You always come out these things that appear to completely contradict what I say. Let me tell you nator, I work on things for a living, and the majority of my customers are academic people who do not know how to turn a screw driver.
I even had one lady who was so impressed with my problem solving skills, and once explained to her in an understandable fashion she commented on why can't her husband who is a brain surgeon, figure these things out. This is typical.
I'll bet you wouldn't know how to design an FMRI experiment to test a theory about a particular aspect of working memory and how to analyse the data, but that's because you haven't gone to graduate school and gotten a PhD in Cognitive Psychology and therefore haven't been trained to do that. My husband has, and that's why he can, and has, done that numerous times.
Which has nothing to do with what I said, and only agrees with what I said.
The "dumb" ones were the ones more likely to have spent time in prison and to have gotten mixed up with drugs. Obviously, they couldn't have had much "street smarts" or "common sense" if they got mixed up with that kind of stuff.
**blink** you didn't just say that all people on drugs are dumb?
The smart ones, regardless of educational background, were always trying to get more education.
I worked in a hospital for 11 years. Almost every doctor there was on cocaine. I knew the guy who sold it to them.
Furthermore, our ability to communicate our ideas effectively in written form is a very good indicator of how orderly our thinking is and if we have mastered the use of our language.
No it isn't. People who score well in English do not usually do as well in math, and vise versa. Very few people possess the complete package, or are compelled to even try. I hated English, but that does not mean I couldn't be good at it. Just coming into these forums has inspired me to become better at it. I hope you have noticed an improvement.
Not everyone will be a brilliant writer, of course, but it is shameful how truly poorly some people write in this country. We already know that sub-standard school systems turn out illiterate people so it isn't that much of a stretch to figure that it will also turn out people who are really poor writers.
I agree.
What I'd like to know, though, is why so many of those terrible writers on this board seem to be religious and/or Creationists?
The smart ones are smart enough not to hang around?
I don't know, there must be 100 variables.
I am saying that a lot of Creationists are poor writers.
*correction* A lot of creationists on this board are poor writers. Which has nothing to do with their intelligence.
Apparently, you have a problem with comprehension as well as expression.
If you would have expressed it the way I just put it, then I would have understood better, and not left so much to the assuming mind. Plus I add all the other things you say into the mix, and I am pretty sure what you meant by it. Maybe you need to take more time to express yourself better.
There are lots of smart people who believe in God, but I think people can't be all that smart and also a Creationist. At the very least, a smart Creationist has to struggle with a lot of cognitive dissonance and willful ignorance.
Depends on the reason why you are a creationist. Read my response to taz.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 01-10-2008 6:11 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 01-11-2008 6:49 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 82 of 318 (447944)
01-11-2008 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
01-11-2008 1:03 PM


Name six.
LMAO. Usually it is name 2 or 3. You had to go to six? Poor show ringo. What are you scared I might actually name them? Why should I bother, you then would only go on to explain how those people are not well understood, or some bullshit like that. You have even understood me most times. You just claimed it a few posts ago.
Being understood, and not being agreed with are two different things.
Hint: One of the keys to writing clarity is anticipating what your words will mean to the reader. Knowing what's in your own mind isn't enough. Communication hinges on being able to trigger the same thoughts in other minds.
Yes, agreed, but not all minds think the same. Especially when it comes to God. I can only relate to my own experience with God, and how much my thoughts on Him and my understanding of the bible, changed in the snap of a finger. If God shows you a touch of His love, how then do you show to others? I believe that is our job. the point is not to give up on the first try. My step-son is handicap, when I met him he was 8 and could not fathom how many pints are in a quart. I had to explain it to him 30 different ways before he got it. You might take 31, but thats ok
you were saying more than you thought you were saying.
No, the topic was very specific of that reply. You just added to it, and took it out of context. A pattern I noticed with so called "articulate people."
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 1:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 1:42 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 83 of 318 (447950)
01-11-2008 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by nator
01-10-2008 6:37 PM


When Taz explains something, I can understand him just fine.
Because you agree with him.
Well, I suppose that means you express yourself the least well of just about anyone on this board.
Is insulting people a part of expressing yourself well?
I never claimed any different. As a matter of fact I have always expressed how frustrated I am with being able to get my thoughts across to others. Mostly to those who disagree with me. But I am not convinced it is my writing skills, or the stubbornness of others. All I know is there are communication gaps, and forums are pretty challenging. I mean you could go on to explain something to me, and if I just don't understand, that does not mean you didn't write it well. The same consideration needs to be taken both ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by nator, posted 01-10-2008 6:37 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 01-11-2008 7:13 PM riVeRraT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 318 (447955)
01-11-2008 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 1:13 PM


riVeRraT writes:
quote:
Name six.
LMAO. Usually it is name 2 or 3. You had to go to six? Poor show ringo. What are you scared I might actually name them?
I was going to go with twelve, but I anticipated that you might ask me to name twelve who can understand me. I have a short memory, so I went with six.
Why should I bother, you then would only go on to explain how those people are not well understood, or some bullshit like that.
Well, if I make up bullshit excuses, I'll look bad. As it is, you're the one making bullshit excuses and looking bad.
You have even understood me most times. You just claimed it a few posts ago.
That would be because of my brilliance, in spite of your lack of clarity.
... not all minds think the same.
That's exactly why you have to anticipate how your audience will probably think.
I had to explain it to him 30 different ways before he got it.
I'd like to see you explain things 30 different ways here.
quote:
you were saying more than you thought you were saying.
No, the topic was very specific of that reply. You just added to it, and took it out of context. A pattern I noticed with so called "articulate people."
Your words said more than you understood.
quote:
Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes....

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:13 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:45 PM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 85 of 318 (447956)
01-11-2008 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
01-11-2008 1:42 PM


1.You are just full of yourself.
*edit*
2 Yourself is full.
3 You are a legend in your own mind.
4 Who better than you?
5 Skipped a meal of humble pie?
6 Pride is the #1 sin.
7 How great you are.
8 Awesome!
9 Truly, no one is better than you!
10 You have it all figured out.
11 I guess you do not need to learn anything.
12 When I grow up, I want to be like you.
13 You are a bloom of pride.
14 Your pride is overwhelming.
15 Your intelligence is above par.
16 You need not talk here, you have it all figured out.
17 I guess someone got straight 100%'s on their report card.
18 How great is your ego!
19 Full of self esteem.
20 You hold yourself in the highest regard.
21 You only think you are brilliant.
22 It's great to have as much self respect as you.
23 Confident are we?
24 You realize of course you will eat those words one day?
25 Totally self-assured, that and a $1.50 will get you on the bus.
26 Ringo, a man with dignity.
27 Supreme face!
28 The glory is mine!!!
29 Ringo talk, otherwise known as "prestige bullshit."
and #30:
Ringo--the flatter man.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 1:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 2:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 318 (447959)
01-11-2008 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 1:45 PM


You could come up with all that (unattributed) and you can't come up with six people who understand you?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 1:45 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 5:46 PM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 87 of 318 (448016)
01-11-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
01-11-2008 2:05 PM


All the people who understand me are the ones who don't reply, which is more than six. When I used to display my email, many people who do not even participate in the forum wrote to me, and thanked me for my faith. There was more than 7. You, like nator seem to be confusing people understanding me, with people agreeing with me.
Also factor in the FACT that people here who are so called "articulate" seem to take things out of context all the time. Whether they do that on purpose, or it is a sign of something else remains to be seen, but your display of my quote in your sig is a prime example. First you claim to know what I have said, but then when pointed out what was really meant, and the obvious context we were in, you contradict yourself and then say, I said more then what I said.
So basically I was perfectly clear, you just decided to take it out of context and use it to say something else, and assign my name to it.
Blasphemy.
That's the real pattern.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 2:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 01-11-2008 6:06 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 90 by nwr, posted 01-11-2008 6:20 PM riVeRraT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 318 (448019)
01-11-2008 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 5:46 PM


riVeRraT writes:
... and then say, I said more then what I said.
I didn't say you said more than what you said. I said the words mean more than you thought they meant. It's a good quote in a general sense even if you meant it in a narrower context.
You don't own the words.
So basically I was perfectly clear...
I didn't say you weren't. Your intent is irrelevant to my signature.
... you just decided to take it out of context and use it to say something else, and assign my name to it.
Blasphemy.
Only if you change your name to riVeRgoD.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 5:46 PM riVeRraT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 318 (448021)
01-11-2008 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 12:10 PM


Re: Working At Improvement
quote:
I've noticed a pattern with people who, quote "express themselves well in writing" seem to not be able to understand others writings, unless they agree on things, and even then it is shaky.
If I may assume that you are referring to me, I'll just point out that I have disagreed with Percy, Phat, Jar, Holmes, Crashfrog, Subbie, Monk, LinearAq, RedVento, Nemesis Juggernaut, Faith, and lots of other people and I have generally had no trouble understanding what those posters write.
People like Buzsaw, Mike The Wiz, Iano, and you tend to mangle the language and write in disjointed ways, creating muddled word salads and even losing track of your own arguments so that they have to be repeated back to you.
Lots of people don't understand what the hell you are trying to say, rat.
Don't mistake an unwillingness on many people's part to be taken on one of your avoidant runarounds as some kind of endorsement of the clarity of your expression.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 12:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 01-13-2008 7:50 AM nator has replied
 Message 273 by Hill Billy, posted 01-26-2008 2:56 PM nator has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 90 of 318 (448023)
01-11-2008 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by riVeRraT
01-11-2008 5:46 PM


All the people who understand me are the ones who don't reply, which is more than six.
I haven't replied. Does that mean that I understand you, or does it merely mean that I didn't reply?
Honestly, I think it's a great quote, and I don't see it as in any way putting you in a bad light. I did have to search to find the post where you said that, so I could see the full context. But even without the context I don't see it as damaging to you. Ringo is just adverising the fact that you have some common sense.
Personally, I think it would be better if Ringo turned that into an active link, so that clicking on the quote would take a person to the context.

Let's end the political smears

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2008 5:46 PM riVeRraT has not replied

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