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Author | Topic: Changes at EvC Forum | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Quetzal Member (Idle past 5892 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I fully expect that everyone who replies on this thread will get indefinite suspensions - the Announcements forum is not and never has been a debate forum. However, I feel compelled to respond to this beautifully articulated cri de coeur. I have been a member here since shortly after the site's inception (six months?). You touched on three of the things that I have found inescapably attractive: the level of intellect exhibited by many (most?) long-term members, the quality of the administration, and the incredible wealth of information available at the touch of a keyboard. No other discussion forum related to this topic - even including the grandfather of them all iidb - has ever risen close to the quality of this site. I've laughed with members, cried with members, argued with members, gotten completely angry with members, and even made some long-term (virtual) friendships with members - something that has made very-often-lonely assignments in remote places a bit more tolerable.
After this long association, I am very inclined to give Percy the benefit of the doubt. However, I fear - as you apparently do - that the sense of community that made this site so special is a thing of the past. So be it - it is Percy's site, and the rest of us are merely guests. Our idea of what the site should be is immaterial if the "father" of the site disagrees. If I should be banned for this post... Well, it's been a wonderful experience, and one I'll treasure. We've had a good run. Thank you Percy for allowing me to play in your sandbox for so long.
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
I share many of the concerns people have raised, but my own feeling is that EvC Forum must change or die, where I mean die in the sense of becoming irrelevant or a backwater. A brief conversation with Nosy followed by some reflection leads me to conclude that the problems had almost nothing to do with the moderator team, who performed admirably with great sacrifice under often difficult and ambiguous circumstances, but more with the lack of leadership, which makes the fault mine.
There were two problems that were causing me a great deal of concern:
In a sense EvC Forum has repeated the history of some of the hippie communes of the 1960's. Begun with great enthusiasm and expectations, after a while they all succumbed to the realities of life: medical care, law enforcement, sanitation, finances, etc., not to mention that people change as they get older, and the firmest friendships somehow decay into embittered animosities. But EvC Forum is not real life, it's just a discussion board whose goal is to promote discussion on topics related to the creation/evolution controversy, and that hasn't changed. Forums like [forum=-14] enable us to develop and maintain a sense of community, and threads that prove divisive can just be closed. I hope to gradually grow the moderator team again over time. But in the future moderator action should prove much more consistent and decisive, because instead of each moderator in essence running their own show from a set of general guidelines, I plan to develop a very brief but very clear and concise set of moderator guidelines, and I've committed myself to providing clear guidance to moderators, something I was very reluctant to do in the past. This is not a way of preventing moderator mistakes, that simply isn't possible, but it should allow much more consistent moderation, and the problems we experienced in some threads, and also in the moderation threads where some members revealed that they had somehow developed enormous feelings of entitlement, should become a much less common occurrence. I believe that if we carry on our tradition of maintaining an open dialogue between the two sides in the creation/evolution controversy that we can only succeed, and the recent changes include a rededication to this goal.
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Quetzal writes: I fully expect that everyone who replies on this thread will get indefinite suspensions - the Announcements forum is not and never has been a debate forum. Two things:
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Topic proposals are closed after the proposer hasn't replied for a week. I jumped the gun on your proposal by a couple days because you said you were losing interest in Message 4 and then hadn't replied again.
I've reopened the thread. Edited by Admin, : Change author. Edited by Admin, : Add signature.
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
I have resurrected the [forum=-15] forum. Only "coffee house" style topics are permitted in this forum. It cannot be used as a way of avoiding moderation of science and religion topics. Threads on such topics found in the [forum=-15] forum will be moved to the [forum=-25] forum for consideration of promotion.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
NWR did not violate the instructions set forth in your OP. As per your instructions he cited specific posts which he felt needful to be addressed.
With the moderation thread closed there was no other venue of addressing these messages of yours. Unlike the other suspended members he followed your instructions for addressing the posts. Perhaps you saw this in a different light but I saw NWR's message as a legitimate request for message clarification which would be helpful to the membership at large who were equally stunned by the suddenness of the action. Imo, given the sudden unexpected nature of your action you should, as NJ has suggested, consider reinacting the priviledges of those suspended, some of the early ones having no idea that their action would be as serious as it turned out for them and the others being supportive protesters to action they deemed oppressive on behalf of their long time associates. It appears that the solution to the state of the board is more related to leadership as you have stated than the symptomatic improprieties in the forums. I've said the above to suggest reinstatement, reconciliation and revision. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
1. Discussion of creation/evolution topics was declining in terms of both volume and quality. Those who remember Peter Borger, Tranquility Base and TrueCreation know what I'm talking about, particularly regarding quality. I know that, just as the name of the forum suggests, you would like for creation/evolution topics to be the focal point. But it isn't. So we should figure out why that is. Fewer and fewer creationists are in existence now. Of those that do exist, the newer creationists haven't the quality that you would expect since the absence of TrueCreation, Tranquility Base, Peter Borger, etc. Though I am not a creationist, I still fit somewhere in this category in that I see serious discrepencies in the widely held field of evolution. I also believe that Intelligent Design makes great arguments in its stead. Despite that, my interest in the debate has waned considerably over the years. I know that you would prefer that people such as myself engage more in these kinds of topics, but my heart is just not in it. I find much more interest in the social implications of these topics rather than the science itself. This is a little disheartening for me, since I was very interested in it at one time. I can't really pinpoint why it has begun to bore me. With that said, if some kind of compromise can be made in the future, I would be willing to take one for the team and attempt to rededicate myself to the debate for the sake of the forum. The greater point that I think may be the issue is that the debate may just be over. If evolutionists sought to defeat creationism, they may have already done so. And it ends up being a case of having received what you asked for (the demise of creation), only to realize that in the end that you don't like the outcome (the demise of creation), because now it forces us to abandon the very premise of the forum.
2. Dissension over non-creation/evolution topics, such as gay issues, was rising. By noticing what threads you participate in versus what you don't participate in, I see that the other threads about religion and social topics bore you. If I were a betting man, I would say that in many ways you probably regret having ever made those forums since it tends to detract from the focal point. But like it or not, that is your money-maker right now. Gotta go with what is generating revenue.
In a sense EvC Forum has repeated the history of some of the hippie communes of the 1960's. Begun with great enthusiasm and expectations, after a while they all succumbed to the realities of life: medical care, law enforcement, sanitation, finances, etc., not to mention that people change as they get older, and the firmest friendships somehow decay into embittered animosities. Very true. I like the analogy.
But EvC Forum is not real life, it's just a discussion board Yes, but EvC does provide a venue for people to let out some of their thoughts. And for countless others, this is a place where entire worldviews take form -- hundreds of lurkers a day. I don't think we should take that lightly, as it comes with great responsibility. We tend to treat it as a game. I fully implicate myself in that. But it really isn't. There are serious things we discuss in here, and we could potentially be helping or hindering countless people. Is there any other place where we discuss at length the kind of things we talk about in the forum? Would you ever really strike up a conversation at this length with some random person? Sure, it occasionally happens at real coffee house, or at churches, or when a group of friends come over to your house for dinner, or at a bar where drunken dialogue takes form through the lessening of inhibitions. But the forum provides a level of anonymity, where we can let it all hang out without having to deal with the body language of one's opponent. In that way, it may be better than real life because people that ordinarily are reserved and introverted get to express themselves and their deepest thoughts, without having the silver-tongued bully control the dialogue in their favor, not on the basis of the strength of their argument, but on the basis that they have been bestowed greater oratory skills. Its like Hovind. You may think he's a complete crackpot. But like it or not, he has won every debate I've ever seen him engage in. That doesn't necessarily mean that his position is right, it means that he has come prepared and that he is naturally predisposed to it.
Forums like Coffee House enable us to develop and maintain a sense of community, and threads that prove divisive can just be closed. I hope that you never take away the Coffee House. Its your money-maker.
I hope to gradually grow the moderator team again over time. But only for your own sanity and because a strong, impartial moderating team has a better chance of ubiquity than one man alone who has to pour through millions of words a day. It would be anarchy without it. In the event that you do start to bring them back, may I suggest the reopening of the Moderation threads? As Arach has shared, it is a checks and balance system. It gives those that don't have a voice the chance for an appeal. With that said, I have seen some members make their plea and where the Admin and the member go back and forth multiple times. Ultimately, the Admin has the final say. We should come up with a way to limit that. But taking it away completely seems equally destructive. We just need to find a balance. “There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: Discussion in this thread is fine. OK. I need to say something. I am so sorry if I offended anyone. I disagree with some of your suspensions, Boss..but its your world and your forum...not mine. Sorry if I overstepped my authority or perception of same while I was an administrator. I wanted to be able to help change EvC Forum myself...and was quite enthusiastic about doing so. I will continue to try and make it a better place while being just a member, but I will be sad to see some of my old friends no longer here.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Percy writes: Discussion in this thread is fine. I that case, I would like to add my two cents worth. I think that Percy has every right to be angry, but I also think that these "Night of the Long Knives" style suspensions have gone too far. What exactly has Brennakimi done to deserve suspension? Or Iceage? Or Jar of all people? The whole thing has left a nasty taste in my mouth, and I've only been here two months. No wonder some long time members are upset.If you want to suspend people Percy, that is your decision, but I don't think it will help, quite the reverse. With respect, I'm asking you to reverse the suspensions, with the possible exception of Amen, who seems to have only himself to blame. I know that my voice counts for very little, but I just felt that I had to go on record. I hope that this whole thing can be resolved. Peace. Mutate and Survive
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CK Member (Idle past 4148 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
why do we have a coffee house and a "free for all"? why not just merge the two with maybe some modification to the guidelines to that area?
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
CK writes: why do we have a coffee house and a "free for all"? why not just merge the two with maybe some modification to the guidelines to that area? Sorry, should have explained that part better.
[forum=-14] will be moderated, though likely with a lighter touch than the primary discussion forums, pretty much as before. Stay sort of on-topic and mostly civil and that should be fine. Coffee House type discussions that decline into abusive behavior or that afront or outrage the sensibilities of one or both sides, whether or not they appear justified, will either be closed or moved to [forum=-15]. Except for on-topic issues, moderators will not get involved in that forum. Moderators will not be attempting to sort out who's in the wrong when discussions about gay issues or women's rights or racism and so on become inflamed. As before, anyone may start a topic in [forum=-14], and the same is now true of [forum=-15].
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
percy, i'm confused.
you've gone from a position of "don't talk about XYZ" to "have at, and as nasty as you want" in less than the span of two days. the free-for-all may be a good experiment, lets see how that goes i guess. i suspect it will turn out a lot like the sandbox. and booting threads there instead of moderating them... i dunno. to be honest, i still believe the old style of moderation worked fine, and i'm not sure what all the fuss was about. i realize the last instance of "gay issues" erupted in massive fights in the moderation thread, but that's an issue that could have (and in my opinion, should have) been dealt with using proper, normal moderation. i really think we still need a thread for discussion of moderation, regardless of how many or how few moderators there are, and a thread for announcing who is suspended/banned for how long, and why. the transparency and communication with the moderation is a neccessary step in creating fair and balanced moderation of the site. i do not see the shift from "democracy" to "totalitarian dictatorship" as a good thing. maybe you do -- but a lot of people are now afraid to post discussing this issue lest they be dragged out into the street and shot, so to speak. and those who aren't... well, board activity is way down. and what is really going on with these seemingly random indefinite suspensions? i can't even figure what jar did, if anything. brenna got banned for showing concern for your wellbeing. i think everyone's upset about this. why are you banning old and formerly valued members of the community?
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Seconded.
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I am, frankly, appalled at all of these suspensions. Percy, explain yourself.
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
If members would like to discuss creation/evolution, the board is as available as ever for that purpose.
If members would like to discuss other topics, the board is also as available as ever for that purpose. But the board will no longer be entertaining member/moderator discussion threads. The moderation threads are clear evidence that it rarely resolves anything, and it turns moderators into targets. I regret taking sudden action, but EvC Forum had become a Gordian Knot of moderators, threads, forums and processes inching inexorably into chaos. The gay issues debacle was just the final straw. Things are simpler now. I've removed those who I felt were the most divisive elements and also those who requested it. For those of you for whom the changes and suspensions are truly unendurable then there are other alternative than just excoriating me, which won't do anything except make me feel bad. I am resolved to stay the course I have chosen. I've done nothing to you, and the Internet is a big place with many other sites.
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