Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Changes at EvC Forum
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1 of 191 (450879)
01-24-2008 2:50 PM


I've been anguishing for some time over what EvC Forum had become, and contemplating how it could evolve from where it was to where I wanted it to be. Yet another fracas over gay issues in the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 14.0 thread, including abuse of moderators, convinced me that only sudden action would work. If I had more free time perhaps over options could have been considered, but I don't.
EvC Forum is rather long in the tooth for an Internet site, and we had become a site dominated by old-timers constantly in battle with old protagonists. In addition, the confusion in creationist ranks since the Dover decision seems to have reduced the competency levels of creationists as measured by those who join here. A desire for democratic decision-making among moderators in the face of insufficient time and the absence of formal processes were stumbling blocks, and animosities, especially among those seemingly in agreement on many issues and stemming from who knows what, provided further inertia preventing action, at least by me since I feared offending anyone or not giving people a voice.
But a lightbulb went on when I realized that it apparently didn't matter whether I did anything or not, some were going to be offended anyway, and then they would feel justified in acting in any way they considered appropriate to the offense. Other moderators were suffering similar fates. I finally just couldn't let it go on anymore.
Everyone's moderator status but my own has been removed, so I am the sole remaining moderator. It isn't reasonable to have just one moderator, and I think one or two more are required. If Moose (Minnemooseus) is willing and interested I'd like him to return as moderator.
I'd like to keep things simpler as we move on. This discussion board is focused on the creation/evolution debate. Other topics are fine in the appropriate forums, even gay issues I guess, but policing them will not be a moderator priority.
Please keep discussion focused and on-topic. A moderator request is not an invitation to begin negotiations, and disagreement with a moderator decision is certainly not permission to begin abusing the moderator. A moderator's responsibility is simple, to keep discussion moving forward productively. Please make it easy for moderators to do their job. I don't see any reason to entertain nonsense here, either behaviorally or in discussion. There's no crime in being wrong, but rational discourse has certain minimum requirements. Those who can't or won't figure out how to contribute constructively to discussion will be suspended, for short periods the first time or three, then indefinitely. I never envisioned this as a site for fools, obscurantists or opposers of those with responsibilities, though I do apologize for letting this get to the point where I took sudden action.
Whenever you encounter messages that appear to require moderator action, please post to Windsor castle.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by RAZD, posted 01-24-2008 4:47 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 01-24-2008 5:09 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-24-2008 5:16 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 01-24-2008 6:16 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 01-25-2008 12:57 AM Admin has not replied
 Message 37 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-25-2008 10:31 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 130 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-28-2008 4:04 PM Admin has replied
 Message 182 by LucyTheApe, posted 02-15-2008 10:18 PM Admin has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 14 of 191 (450966)
01-25-2008 8:55 AM


AdminNosy Returns
NosyNed has graciously agreed to resume his AdminNosy moderator role. I'm sure this is welcome news to all.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Larni, posted 01-25-2008 9:05 AM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 17 of 191 (450970)
01-25-2008 9:38 AM


As We Move Forward
I share many of the concerns people have raised, but my own feeling is that EvC Forum must change or die, where I mean die in the sense of becoming irrelevant or a backwater. A brief conversation with Nosy followed by some reflection leads me to conclude that the problems had almost nothing to do with the moderator team, who performed admirably with great sacrifice under often difficult and ambiguous circumstances, but more with the lack of leadership, which makes the fault mine.
There were two problems that were causing me a great deal of concern:
  1. Discussion of creation/evolution topics was declining in terms of both volume and quality. Those who remember Peter Borger, Tranquility Base and TrueCreation know what I'm talking about, particularly regarding quality.
  2. Dissension over non-creation/evolution topics, such as gay issues, was rising.
In a sense EvC Forum has repeated the history of some of the hippie communes of the 1960's. Begun with great enthusiasm and expectations, after a while they all succumbed to the realities of life: medical care, law enforcement, sanitation, finances, etc., not to mention that people change as they get older, and the firmest friendships somehow decay into embittered animosities.
But EvC Forum is not real life, it's just a discussion board whose goal is to promote discussion on topics related to the creation/evolution controversy, and that hasn't changed. Forums like [forum=-14] enable us to develop and maintain a sense of community, and threads that prove divisive can just be closed.
I hope to gradually grow the moderator team again over time.
But in the future moderator action should prove much more consistent and decisive, because instead of each moderator in essence running their own show from a set of general guidelines, I plan to develop a very brief but very clear and concise set of moderator guidelines, and I've committed myself to providing clear guidance to moderators, something I was very reluctant to do in the past. This is not a way of preventing moderator mistakes, that simply isn't possible, but it should allow much more consistent moderation, and the problems we experienced in some threads, and also in the moderation threads where some members revealed that they had somehow developed enormous feelings of entitlement, should become a much less common occurrence.
I believe that if we carry on our tradition of maintaining an open dialogue between the two sides in the creation/evolution controversy that we can only succeed, and the recent changes include a rededication to this goal.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-25-2008 11:57 AM Admin has not replied
 Message 152 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-29-2008 9:52 AM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 18 of 191 (450972)
01-25-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Quetzal
01-25-2008 9:15 AM


Quetzal writes:
I fully expect that everyone who replies on this thread will get indefinite suspensions - the Announcements forum is not and never has been a debate forum.
Two things:
  • Realizing that some announcements require discussion, we some time ago created the [forum=-36] forum, which only permit posts from moderators. That's where site statistics and suspension information is posted.
    Discussion in this thread is fine.
  • I'm only issuing indefinite suspensions to members who specifically request it, or who indicate by the nature of a reply that they would be a divisive presence in moving forward. In some circumstances I weighed past history.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Quetzal, posted 01-25-2008 9:15 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 01-25-2008 10:51 AM Admin has not replied
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 12:04 PM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 19 of 191 (450974)
01-25-2008 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
01-24-2008 9:14 PM


Re: more suggestions (ducks)
Topic proposals are closed after the proposer hasn't replied for a week. I jumped the gun on your proposal by a couple days because you said you were losing interest in Message 4 and then hadn't replied again.
I've reopened the thread.
Edited by Admin, : Change author.
Edited by Admin, : Add signature.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 01-24-2008 9:14 PM RAZD has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 20 of 191 (450977)
01-25-2008 10:27 AM


[forum=-15] Restored to Life
I have resurrected the [forum=-15] forum. Only "coffee house" style topics are permitted in this forum. It cannot be used as a way of avoiding moderation of science and religion topics. Threads on such topics found in the [forum=-15] forum will be moved to the [forum=-25] forum for consideration of promotion.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 01-25-2008 3:19 PM Admin has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 26 of 191 (451010)
01-25-2008 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by CK
01-25-2008 3:19 PM


Re: [forum=-15] Restored to Life
CK writes:
why do we have a coffee house and a "free for all"? why not just merge the two with maybe some modification to the guidelines to that area?
Sorry, should have explained that part better.
[forum=-14] will be moderated, though likely with a lighter touch than the primary discussion forums, pretty much as before. Stay sort of on-topic and mostly civil and that should be fine.
Coffee House type discussions that decline into abusive behavior or that afront or outrage the sensibilities of one or both sides, whether or not they appear justified, will either be closed or moved to [forum=-15]. Except for on-topic issues, moderators will not get involved in that forum. Moderators will not be attempting to sort out who's in the wrong when discussions about gay issues or women's rights or racism and so on become inflamed.
As before, anyone may start a topic in [forum=-14], and the same is now true of [forum=-15].

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 01-25-2008 3:19 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 01-25-2008 4:25 PM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 30 of 191 (451039)
01-25-2008 6:48 PM


Brief Answers
If members would like to discuss creation/evolution, the board is as available as ever for that purpose.
If members would like to discuss other topics, the board is also as available as ever for that purpose.
But the board will no longer be entertaining member/moderator discussion threads. The moderation threads are clear evidence that it rarely resolves anything, and it turns moderators into targets.
I regret taking sudden action, but EvC Forum had become a Gordian Knot of moderators, threads, forums and processes inching inexorably into chaos. The gay issues debacle was just the final straw.
Things are simpler now. I've removed those who I felt were the most divisive elements and also those who requested it. For those of you for whom the changes and suspensions are truly unendurable then there are other alternative than just excoriating me, which won't do anything except make me feel bad. I am resolved to stay the course I have chosen. I've done nothing to you, and the Internet is a big place with many other sites.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by molbiogirl, posted 01-25-2008 6:51 PM Admin has replied
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 01-25-2008 7:16 PM Admin has replied
 Message 47 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-26-2008 1:11 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 71 by nator, posted 01-26-2008 5:35 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 118 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-27-2008 3:27 PM Admin has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 191 (451046)
01-25-2008 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by molbiogirl
01-25-2008 6:51 PM


Re: Brief Answers
molbiogirl writes:
With the exception of Nem.
Actually, I indefinitely suspended him twice. In the order I read his posts in two different threads, I came across a post requesting suspension, so I did, then as I read on I saw he'd posted an equivocation, so I remove the suspension, then as I read on he requested it again, so I did, and then someone, GDR I think, talked him out of it and he changed his mind, so I again removed it.
So Nem was suspended twice as much as anyone else!

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by molbiogirl, posted 01-25-2008 6:51 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 35 of 191 (451049)
01-25-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
01-25-2008 7:16 PM


Re: Brief Answers
Hi Arach,
I've read all your recent posts, and I understand and appreciate your position. If you want to discuss the changes then I'm here, but I'm staying the course I've chosen, so the course you've chosen of focusing on the decision itself will not elicit any responses.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 01-25-2008 7:16 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by arachnophilia, posted 01-25-2008 7:48 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 12:59 AM Admin has not replied
 Message 43 by Quetzal, posted 01-26-2008 9:30 AM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 116 of 191 (451383)
01-27-2008 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by randman
01-27-2008 12:01 AM


Re: suggesting considering this is debate site
randman writes:
One note: I have not regained some posting privileges to my knowledge.
Your forum permissions were structured for Showcase, which we're not using anymore, so I restored them to normal.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by randman, posted 01-27-2008 12:01 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by randman, posted 01-27-2008 3:52 PM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 117 of 191 (451390)
01-27-2008 3:17 PM


Some Observations
Anyone recognize the word "lesnerize"? It's from a classic science fiction story by Robert Sheckley (the whole story is on-line, it's very short and well worth a read, see Protection).
Those familiar with the story will understand why I mention it in the context of moderation problems here at EvC. The more moderators we had, the more we needed. The more explanations moderators offered, the more explanations were required. The more help moderators offered, the worse the problems became.
I've often said that just like bad money pushes out good money (think inflation), bad debate pushes out good debate. The more threads become bogged down in endless haggling over side-issues, the less the forum hosts quality discussions and the less it draws quality participants.
I've also argued many times that people don't change. Problem members, no matter what the specifics, will almost always remain problem members. Whether it's an inability to stay on topic or make sense, or an incredible negative view of those in disagreement with them, or something else, these qualities just don't change.
AdminNosy, Adminnemooseus and myself still have details to work out regarding moderation, but there is one point upon which I've reversed my opinion completely. I used to believe that balanced moderation could best be achieved with a moderator team of both creationists and evolutionists, but in the end this caused polarization among moderators with resulting paralysis and chaos. But history actually indicate that quality moderation with a clear and consistent direction and a single final voice has always brought better results.
EvC Forum exists to provide a venue for productive discussion between evolutionists and creationists through moderated discussion threads. Those who make this difficult will not be permitted to remain here. I don't think it is asking too much for members to embrace the raison d'tre of EvC Forum and not hinder achievement of our primary goal of allowing the two sides to better understand one another through communication in a dispassionate environment.
Any gathering of people develops a sense of community, and this turns out to be as true of the virtual communities of the on-line world as anywhere real. It's always sad when a community loses someone, so since we'll no longer be discussing moderator actions and anguishing endlessly about suspensions, when you see moderators giving a lot of attention to someone you would be sad to see go, don't appeal to the moderators, appeal to your friend to follow moderator requests.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-27-2008 3:58 PM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 122 of 191 (451401)
01-27-2008 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Hyroglyphx
01-27-2008 3:27 PM


Re: Brief Answers
Nothing is forever. Let us see how things go for a little while before I give the question more consideration.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-27-2008 3:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-27-2008 4:00 PM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 131 of 191 (451744)
01-28-2008 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Dan Carroll
01-28-2008 4:04 PM


Yours is a pretty good example of a post indicating that you'd probably be a divisive force in moving forward. EvC Forum is for discussion and debate on topics related to the creation/evolution controversy. If that's what you'd like to do, then welcome aboard, that's what this site is for. But the moderators who work so hard to make this site work are not here for members to abuse, which is what had become far too commonplace.
No need to check in every six months with an attitude like yours.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-28-2008 4:04 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by nator, posted 01-28-2008 6:18 PM Admin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 137 of 191 (451837)
01-28-2008 8:27 PM


Restating what should be obvious by now...
EvC Forum's primary purpose is to promote constructive dialogue between the two sides in the creation/evolution controversy. Those who don't share that goal do not have the right to make things difficult for those who do.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by arachnophilia, posted 01-28-2008 10:21 PM Admin has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024