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Author Topic:   20 years of the Creation/ID science curriculum
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 305 (452496)
01-30-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
01-26-2008 2:22 PM


Sometime Within 20 Years
So let us try to imagine what America is like 20 years after the creation/ID science curriculum becomes the law of the land.
Sometime within 20 years:
1. They might discuss/study/debate some of the displays and claims of the creationist museums whereas now they're pretty much ignored or pshawed as bogus.
2. Much if not most of the creo museum display is actual observable evidence of something relative to archeological research, excavation etc. This could be studied/debated/discussed relative to both ideologies.
3. Likely secularists would finally research the Nuweiba beach/sandbar at Aquaba and the corroborating evidence in the region relative to the Biblical Exodus. That's just one example of things needing more research etc.
4. The Biblical global flood then being on the table, other perspectives than the conventional would be studied relative to pre-flood atmospheric conditions, terrarium possibilities and what effect a pre-flood atmosphere might have on modern dating methodology, etc.
5. Things like levitation and such might be discussed relative to claims of the accult as is claimed.
6. Phenomena of particles, etc which appear to emerge in and out of existence might be discussed relative to metaphysical phenomena such as unseen powers in view of observed behavior of humans involving good and evil unseen powers/beings we call angels and demons. These have been widely into human cultures from the beginning of recorded history. Are these related to particle phenomena, etc. These might be on the table.
7. Mathmatical probabilities of abiogenesis, RM and NS might be included in science curriculum. Other math probability studies might be the corroborative multitudes of properties of atmosphere, solar system positions, earth properties, etc needful for life to even exist. These all would be open to study.
8. Funding might be more evenhanded to include some aspects of nonconventional research, archeology and studies.
9. More creo research and study would flush out the false and lend credibility to the factual relative to all aspects of scientific study, archeology and research.
10. The stigma might be somewhat alleviated relative to creo peer review accessability and employment fairhandedness.
I could go on and on. If the playing field were leveled for all imo, we'd all be a whole lot more apprised and intelligent. The kiddies all the way up through higher education would then be knowledgeable so as to decide for themselves what to think rather than to have exclusive conventionalist mush stuffed into their heads throughout their lives.
Edited by Buzsaw, : add title and quote

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-26-2008 2:22 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by reiverix, posted 01-30-2008 3:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 34 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-30-2008 4:39 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 48 by anglagard, posted 02-01-2008 9:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

reiverix
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 80
From: Central Ohio
Joined: 10-18-2007


Message 32 of 305 (452508)
01-30-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
01-30-2008 3:08 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
If the playing field were leveled for all imo, we'd all be a whole lot more apprised and intelligent.
I see it a whole lot different. If the playing fields were leveled, ID/Creationism would still contribute absolutely nothing to the advancement of science. You know, similar to the last several millenia.
Honestly, I don't understand how it's not prefectly clear. We don't make discoveries in science/technology by using the supernatural.
Edited by reiverix, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2008 3:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 33 of 305 (452512)
01-30-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Trixie
01-28-2008 4:55 PM


Re: Aims determine 20 year destination
Trixie
I think your assessment is right on the mark. This subject would probably make a good sci-fi plot, but I do not think that even the majority of religious parents in our country would allow the public education system to become perverted in this way.
As Jazzns pointed out earlier market forces would drive scientific education and research back toward more productive lines of inquiry.
Randman claims that introducing ID into science classes would lead to students developing better critical thinking skills. If he is right, once they apply those newly gained skills to the silly idea that ID is science, they will reject it completely.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Trixie, posted 01-28-2008 4:55 PM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 34 of 305 (452535)
01-30-2008 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
01-30-2008 3:08 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
Buzsaw:
1. They might discuss/study/debate some of the displays and claims of the creationist museums whereas now they're pretty much ignored or pshawed as bogus.
Most of them have been discussed and debated (here on this forum for example) and they have been refuted by real evidence. We call them PRATTs.
2. Much if not most of the creo museum display is actual observable evidence of something relative to archeological research, excavation etc. This could be studied/debated/discussed relative to both ideologies.
same as above.
3. Likely secularists would finally research the Nuweiba beach/sandbar at Aquaba and the corroborating evidence in the region relative to the Biblical Exodus. That's just one example of things needing more research etc.
Why should secularists do this research? What is stopping IDists from conducting this research right now? If they actually find something significant I would expect archaeologists would be clamoring to study them.
4. The Biblical global flood then being on the table, other perspectives than the conventional would be studied relative to pre-flood atmospheric conditions, terrarium possibilities and what effect a pre-flood atmosphere might have on modern dating methodology, etc.
There is no evidence that a global flood occurred and there is also no evidence that the laws of physics, with regard to dating methodologies, changed after this mythological flood.
5. Things like levitation and such might be discussed relative to claims of the accult as is claimed.
Well, you got me on this one. I had no idea that no one was allowed to research levitation. I would like to know how they do it, too.
6. Phenomena of particles, etc which appear to emerge in and out of existence might be discussed relative to metaphysical phenomena such as unseen powers in view of observed behavior of humans involving good and evil unseen powers/beings we call angels and demons. These have been widely into human cultures from the beginning of recorded history. Are these related to particle phenomena, etc. These might be on the table.
Do you have any methodologies that might be used to study the correlation between particle behavior and angels and demons and how that relates to good and evil?
7. Mathmatical probabilities of abiogenesis, RM and NS might be included in science curriculum. Other math probability studies might be the corroborative multitudes of properties of atmosphere, solar system positions, earth properties, etc needful for life to even exist. These all would be open to study.
They are open to study right now. The IDists should be jumping on this.
8. Funding might be more evenhanded to include some aspects of nonconventional research, archeology and studies.
The various ID/Creationist organizations already have $millions that they are spending on lawyers and campaigns to get their doctrine into science classes. It would be better spent on research. Do you mean they would like to fund conventional, real scientific research?
9. More creo research and study would flush out the false and lend credibility to the factual relative to all aspects of scientific study, archeology and research.
What are they waiting for? They should get started right away.
10. The stigma might be somewhat alleviated relative to creo peer review accessability and employment fairhandedness.
Creos can submit papers to scientific journals right now. There is no box they have to check indicating that they are a creo. If their paper has scientific merit it will be published.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2008 3:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2008 2:11 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 305 (452853)
01-31-2008 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tanypteryx
01-30-2008 4:39 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
Tanyptterix writes:
Most of them have been discussed and debated (here on this forum for example) and they have been refuted by real evidence. We call them PRATTs.
We're not talking discussion here. We're talking out where the rubber meets the road in the educational institutions, the media, more indepth research etc involving the secularist community.
Why should secularists do this research? What is stopping IDists from conducting this research right now? If they actually find something significant I would expect archaeologists would be clamoring to study them.
Because it's them who pshaw it. Creationists have done the research and all the work so far. Let the naysayers put up or shut up by falsification if they think they can. But no, they refuse to even look at it. All they do is badmouth the research creationists are doing having dug up no evidence to support their allegations.
There is no evidence that a global flood occurred and there is also no evidence that the laws of physics, with regard to dating methodologies, changed after this mythological flood.
Biblicalists believe there is evidence. It's all in how you interpret it. Let both POVs be debated, discussed and studied in debth in the schools so as for the students to make up their own minds.
Well, you got me on this one. I had no idea that no one was allowed to research levitation. I would like to know how they do it, too.
There is some out there on this. For example I have a book some place in my stuff which I read authored by a Baptist pastor who was brought up in the spiritism accult who was present in groups engaging in such practices. Perhaps some of this could be analysed along with other metaphysical phenomena in educational studies whereas currently it's simply ignored as if it nothing relative to it is being practiced in society.
Do you have any methodologies that might be used to study the correlation between particle behavior and angels and demons and how that relates to good and evil?
Not specifically, but perhaps the fact that unseen powers have been assumed by nearly all cultures throughout human history could be indicative that there could be some connection.
They are open to study right now. The IDists should be jumping on this.
IDists are jumping on math probabilities, but that's as far as it gets. The science departments in the educational institutions and conventional science pretty much sweep this sort of thing under the proverbial rug.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-30-2008 4:39 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-31-2008 3:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 38 by Coyote, posted 01-31-2008 5:32 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 51 by Jaderis, posted 02-02-2008 9:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 36 of 305 (452871)
01-31-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
01-27-2008 8:17 PM


Re: critical thinking skills
I think the ID camp wants students to develop critical thinking skills and so wants both ID and evo theories to be taught and examined critically. Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone wanting students to be educated would balk at, for example, teaching criticisms of evo theory.
You really can't fathom that?
That's funny, I explained it to you just the other day.
Try to pay attention this time.
It's because all the "criticisms of evo theory" are stupid drooling lies; because any competent science teacher would know this; and therefore forcing science teachers to teach these "criticisms of evo theory" would involve compelling science teachers to knowingly lie to children.
Do you understand now, or would you like me to explain it again?
It really is very simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by randman, posted 01-27-2008 8:17 PM randman has not replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 37 of 305 (452872)
01-31-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
01-31-2008 2:11 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
Buzsaw writes:
We're not talking discussion here. We're talking out where the rubber meets the road in the educational institutions, the media, more indepth research etc involving the secularist community.
So basically you are saying, after ID/Creationism has succeeded in redefining the science taught in schools, you expect the "old school" secularist scientists to do the actual research into ID/Creo claims?
You seem to be unaware of what motivates people to become scientists. Every scientist I have known became one because of an overwhelming curiosity about how the natural world works. They want to make discoveries about and within their own fields of interest.
The truth is, if ID/Creationism becomes part of the science curriculum there will be no more secular scientists emerging from our educational institutions. The students that come through that educational "bottleneck" will be unable to apply the scientific method to gain an understanding of the natural world and they certainly will still have no tools explain the supernatural, except goddidit.
Buzsaw writes:
Because it's them who pshaw it. Creationists have done the research and all the work so far. Let the naysayers put up or shut up by falsification if they think they can. But no, they refuse to even look at it. All they do is badmouth the research creationists are doing having dug up no evidence to support their allegations.
We have been waiting for their research. Where is it for us to look at? Creationist do not do research. Their only activity seems to be producing endless and repeated straw-man criticisms of evolution.
The scientific evidence accumulated by virtually every branch of science over the past 150 years falsifies Biblical Creationism. We do not have to badmouth "the research creationists", because they do not exist.
Adding ID/Creationism to the science curriculum of our educational institutions will not level the playing field, it will ultimately just leave a big hole where science education used to be.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2008 2:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by randman, posted 01-31-2008 6:25 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 38 of 305 (452889)
01-31-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
01-31-2008 2:11 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
quote:
quote:
There is no evidence that a global flood occurred and there is also no evidence that the laws of physics, with regard to dating methodologies, changed after this mythological flood.
Biblicalists believe there is evidence. It's all in how you interpret it. Let both POVs be debated, discussed and studied in debth in the schools so as for the students to make up their own minds.
"Let both POVs be debated, discussed and studied in debth..."
Which two POVs would those be? You have science on one hand, what is the other? I expect that it is really religion.
You do realize that the last of the major early creationist geologists attempting to prove a global flood gave up by 1831, don't you? There is no other POV in science concerning the belief in a global flood; there is only religious belief trying to sneak its way in any way it can, having long since failed the test of science.
It sounds like what you really want is your religious belief taught in science classes, on an equal footing with science, but immune from the peer-review and criticism (critical thinking!) that is normally associated with science. Is that about it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2008 2:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 305 (452902)
01-31-2008 6:22 PM


one thing is clear
The non-evos appear to be the more open-minded and less inclined towards indoctrination as they (we) are arguing for more openness in the class-room and both or perhaps more than "both" sides be taught in schools.
Evos are arguing students should be kept from hearing creationist and ID arguments.
You'd think if they felt their views were so much more supported factually that they would welcome the chance to have them presented side by side with their critics, but that's not the case.

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 40 of 305 (452904)
01-31-2008 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tanypteryx
01-31-2008 3:40 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
The truth is, if ID/Creationism becomes part of the science curriculum there will be no more secular scientists emerging from our educational institutions.
I have to ask you and don't take it as offensive, please, but do you genuinely believe that? You think if ID and creationism are taught alongside Darwinism that "there will be no more secular scientists emerging"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-31-2008 3:40 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-31-2008 7:20 PM randman has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 305 (452912)
01-31-2008 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
01-31-2008 6:22 PM


Re: one thing is clear
randman writes:
You'd think if they felt their views were so much more supported factually that they would welcome the chance to have them presented side by side with their critics, but that's not the case.
This is true. I've alluded to that as well. If ID is as nonsensical as our counterparts like to think it is what better way for them to show that to be the case than to educate students regarding both POVs side by side.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 01-31-2008 6:22 PM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Trixie, posted 01-31-2008 6:47 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 60 by Trixie, posted 02-03-2008 9:12 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-05-2008 11:10 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 42 of 305 (452914)
01-31-2008 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
01-31-2008 6:39 PM


Re: one thing is clear
I can think of one better way and they did that in Dover. If you want to discuss that, why not post in the Significance of Dover thread, after all thats what you seem to be discussing here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2008 6:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2008 8:31 PM Trixie has replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 43 of 305 (452922)
01-31-2008 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by randman
01-31-2008 6:25 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
Tanypteryx in Message 37 writes:
The truth is, if ID/Creationism becomes part of the science curriculum there will be no more secular scientists emerging from our educational institutions.
Randman writes:
I have to ask you and don't take it as offensive, please, but do you genuinely believe that? You think if ID and creationism are taught alongside Darwinism that "there will be no more secular scientists emerging"?
No offense taken. The people politically lobbying to include ID and creationism in science classes have made it pretty clear in their "wedge document" that the goal is not to teach it alongside evolution, but to replace evolution. So, yes I do believe what I said above.
I do not think they will ever be able to convince the courts, the science teachers or the scientific community that they have something legitimate to offer, other than as an example of pseudo-science. When we ask the question, "Where's the science?", all we hear is silence.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by randman, posted 01-31-2008 6:25 PM randman has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 305 (453323)
02-01-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Trixie
01-31-2008 6:47 PM


Re: one thing is clear
Trixie writes:
I can think of one better way and they did that in Dover. If you want to discuss that, why not post in the Significance of Dover thread, after all thats what you seem to be discussing here.
Perhaps you missed these points which I put forth for responses.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Trixie, posted 01-31-2008 6:47 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Trixie, posted 02-02-2008 6:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 305 (453324)
02-01-2008 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Coyote
01-31-2008 5:32 PM


Re: Sometime Within 20 Years
Coyote writes:
Which two POVs would those be? You have science on one hand, what is the other? I expect that it is really religion.
Hi Coyote. Welcome, btw. Since you're a new member perhaps you should search back into the archives and you will find things like the Nuweiba/Aqaba Exodus region where scientific research was conducted as an example of some of the ID creation science having been done.
If you place your curser on any "Buzsaw" usernames on the page you will get my posting profile. You can then go back until you find some science related ID debates like the Exodus research.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Coyote, posted 01-31-2008 5:32 PM Coyote has not replied

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