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Author | Topic: Human Evolution (re: If evolved from apes, why still apes?) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5867 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: First, I think it's 'Previously Refuted A Thousand Times', not that it matters. Your way works to. Second, your refutes to this topic were seemingly against me. If you'll notice, the message you replied to never had any arguments for or against the topic, just a little encouragement and question. Third, you just made my point. By constantly calling me a 'fish' (I know fully well what Ichthus is and its acronym (I think that it's Iesous Christos (h) Theos (h) Uios Sotos, in the original greek language). Fourth, Creationism is not recycled feces. My point is thus: Every major civilization at the beginning of time (dated around 6,000 A.D. has believed not only in a God (or gods), but in a creation. There was absolutely no way that these civilizations, separated by at most seventeen thousand miles, the world's biggest (and possibly roughest) ocean, and the world's highest mountains. Therefore, the only explanation would be that all of these stories came from a real event. If you disagree, please do so and explain your theory on how these civilizations could have communicated the creation theory over this time. P.S. Just as a side-note, evolutionism only came into being in the 1800's. According to creationists, that'd be only 200 out of 6000-8000 years, or 3%-2.5% of humanity. To evolutionists, it'd be 0.00013% of humanity. Either way, creationism has been accepted far longer and even now by far more people than evolutionism. By sheer numbers, let along the truth, creationism wins.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2127 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
quote:These commonalities work as well with evolution as with creationism. The idea of deities and creation could easily have started among some folks a million or two million years ago and have been passed down to succeeding generations. There is no scientific evidence that it reflects a real event, nor is that necessary for the idea to have been passed from generation to generation. We pass many myths from generation to generation. quote:This "numbers" game is fine. Lets play it with scientific evidence. When we do that creationism and other ideas, such as a global flood, come up with no scientific support while the theory of evolution comes up with mountains of supporting evidence.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
My point is thus: Every major civilization at the beginning of time (dated around 6,000 A.D. has believed not only in a God (or gods), but in a creation.... Therefore, the only explanation would be that all of these stories came from a real event. Well, if it were truly a real event only 6000 years ago (I think your dating is, er, a bit off), then I would expect that the majority of creation myths would agree substantially in most of their details. But since all creation myths are very, very different, I think we can conclude that they are not based on any real event in the recent past. Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter; His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows And a parade of the gray suited grafters: A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5867 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Well, how about fossils of animals that seem to have died violent deaths, or fossils that cover two or more sedimentary layers, or layers that were considered older are above 'younger' ones. Or even that pollen spores have been found in the Grand Canyon inside of rocks that are supposedly so old life wasn't even beginning to form, let alone plants. It seems that Is this not evidence?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Okey dokey. I'm calling your bluff.
Well, how about fossils of animals that seem to have died violent deaths ... What on earth does this prove? An animal that dies a violent death and that is then fossilized proves ... um ... that the animal died a violent death and was then fossilized. You can't tell from a fossil that it "died in a flood". If, by some stretch of the imagination you think you can, please tell me how. And back up your "theories" with evidence from the scientific literature. Your word is not good enough for me.
... or fossils that cover two or more sedimentary layers, or layers that were considered older are above 'younger' ones. Cites, please. No creo babble from AIG, ICR, ad nauseum. From the scientific literature. And, just in case you have never bothered to look for proper evidence: Google Scholar PubMed
Or even that pollen spores have been found in the Grand Canyon inside of rocks that are supposedly so old life wasn't even beginning to form, let alone plants. Cites, please.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Is this not evidence? To repeat what molbiogirl just said, no, statements written by an anonymous poster on an internet message board are not evidence. You really need to give us sources for these claims so that they can be checked out. Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter; His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows And a parade of the gray suited grafters: A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Certain kinds of Christianity are. Start a thread, we'll discuss it.
quote: Any belief which contradicts reality requires willful ignorance. Christians who deny Evolution, for example, certainly are willfully ignorant. Start a thread, we'll discuss it.
quote: I've been called many things by Creationists, such as stupid, evil, immoral, supportive of murder, racist, accused of hating people who believe in God, a liar, and lots of other not very nice names. You want I should provide examples?
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I believe it. Remember, ICANT tells us that he has been a church pastor (leader) for many years, and what he knows about science would fit into half a thimble, and the religiously-based misconceptions and falsehoods he believes would fill a book or two.
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: 1) There are thousands of creations stories, and many, many of them are mutually contradictory. 2) People ignorant of the processes of nature made up many stories to explain why things appeared and happened the way they did. We humans are curious and we like to know the answers to why things happen. Lots of times, we make stuff up. People do it all the time. Ever read about cargo cults? I mean, Apollo doesn't really drive the sun across the sky in his firey chariot every day, does he? People used to belive all sorts of things about why the sun appeared to move as it does, but we know now that there is no supernatural or mystical explanation needed to explain the apparent movement of the sun. 3) Just becasue "everybody" believes something doesn't make it true. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I mean, Apollo doesn't really drive the sun across the sky in his firey chariot every day, does he? Sure. Every society, even ones seperated by long distances, have a myth about the sun. So, by Ichthus' argument, this particular myth is probably true. Edited by Chiroptera, : but -> by Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter; His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows And a parade of the gray suited grafters: A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
First, I think it's 'Previously Refuted A Thousand Times', not that it matters. Your way works to. Second, your refutes to this topic were seemingly against me. If you'll notice, the message you replied to never had any arguments for or against the topic, just a little encouragement and question. Third, you just made my point. By constantly calling me a 'fish' (I know fully well what Ichthus is and its acronym (I think that it's Iesous Christos (h) Theos (h) Uios Sotos, in the original greek language). Fourth, Creationism is not recycled feces. My point is thus: Every major civilization at the beginning of time (dated around 6,000 A.D. has believed not only in a God (or gods), but in a creation. There was absolutely no way that these civilizations, separated by at most seventeen thousand miles, the world's biggest (and possibly roughest) ocean, and the world's highest mountains. Therefore, the only explanation would be that all of these stories came from a real event. If you disagree, please do so and explain your theory on how these civilizations could have communicated the creation theory over this time. P.S. Just as a side-note, evolutionism only came into being in the 1800's. According to creationists, that'd be only 200 out of 6000-8000 years, or 3%-2.5% of humanity. To evolutionists, it'd be 0.00013% of humanity. Either way, creationism has been accepted far longer and even now by far more people than evolutionism. By sheer numbers, let along the truth, creationism wins. What does any of this BS have to do with the OP? Please try to stay on topic. Don't clutter up the thread with OT crap. In case you've forgotten:
OP writes:
If humans were said to be.. or be related to gorillas.. or chimpanzees or of those african apes, why is there still such things as gorillas and other apes.. wouldnt there be all humans if the apes have evolved into these humans.. how are these apes still maintain all the perfect DNA as to what exactly they are as apes, when apes have evolved into humans.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2498 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Icthus writes: Either way, creationism has been accepted far longer and even now by far more people than evolutionism. By sheer numbers, let along the truth, creationism wins. So on this basis, you believe that the sun goes round the earth, presumably, and that diseases are caused by evil spirits. In your earlier post, you talked about the rudeness of evolutionists, but it cuts both ways, I can assure you, and we've all been called names and condemned to eternal damnation by your creationist brethren. Love thy enemy, indeed, but not if he's an evolutionist. On the topic, do you understand what is ridiculous about it? The main point isn't that, as a creationist, you clearly don't believe that you descend from other (extinct) species. What evolutionists often react strongly to is the misrepresentation of evolutionary theory by so many creationists. If you're a young earth Christian creationist, for example, and I kept saying that you believed that mankind was made out of leaves by the angels 2,000 years ago, and then argued against that, I would be arguing against something I'd invented myself, a straw man, and you might well object, correctly, to my having misrepresented your beliefs. That's so often the case when creationists argue against evolution. "By all means disagree", we could say to the guy who started this thread, "but at least learn what it is you're disagreeing with." The evolutionary view is that we descended from a common ancestor with the chimps, and going back further, the gorillas, and even further, the other apes, but all branches have evolved into the modern versions and are different from the common ancestors. There's no reason why the other branches should be extinct, which is why there are still apes. Just like there are lots of different members of the cat family who descend from a common ancestor, some species more recently related than others. Welcome to EvC, and the culture wars!
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skepticfaith Member (Idle past 5743 days) Posts: 71 From: NY, USA Joined: |
quote:I dont think this really as dumb as you claim beacause: quote:This is not even an answer! Quite clearly, the layman will always be ignorant of genetics but is not understanding how come the proposed ancestor resembles the creature still alive together. So the question is if we evolved so much from some apelike creature how come the chimps we see today are not much different from this proposed ancestor? I guess the answer is they have changed too, but not as much and certainly did not evolve the big brain we have now. Here is something that I always wondered - is it plausible to think that another creature alive now can evolve into a new creature given a few million years to a creature more intelligent than a human ? Assume that the human race went extinct today ..
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
So the question is if we evolved so much from some apelike creature how come the chimps we see today are not much different from this proposed ancestor? And the answer is: Chimps are radically different from the common ancestor. As are we. btw. Chimps differ from humans by less than 1% genetically.
Here is something that I always wondered - is it plausible to think that another creature alive now can evolve into a new creature given a few million years to a creature more intelligent than a human ? Assume that the human race went extinct today .. OK. Humans. Gone. Something else evolves. Much as a new dominant lifeform evolved once the previous dominant lifeform (dinosaurs) went extinct long, long ago.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2498 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
skepticfaith writes: Here is something that I always wondered - is it plausible to think that another creature alive now can evolve into a new creature given a few million years to a creature more intelligent than a human ? Assume that the human race went extinct today .. I think it's plausible, yes, although if you'd said "tens of millions of years" then it would be even more likely. If a species happened to take the road of rapidly increasing intelligence immediately after our extinction, then a few million years could be enough. However, it's by no means inevitable, and the world could find itself in fifty million years with nothing as intelligent as us. The fact that ourselves and the dolphins seem to have greatly increased brain size and intelligence separately argues in favour of your suggestion happening eventually. Big brains are hungry, and take up a lot of food, but if they enable the organism to bring in more food than they consume, they are a clear advantage. But you also have to get the right kind and combinations of mutations, which may be why it's taken so much time and evolution to produce animals as intelligent as some of the modern mammals.
So the question is if we evolved so much from some apelike creature how come the chimps we see today are not much different from this proposed ancestor? We don't really know how similar the chimps are to the ancestor, but I agree that they are probably much more so than us. They've probably stayed in a similar environment, so natural selection would act as a more conservative force. It would preserve already good adaptions in them, whereas new characteristics that were beneficial in our new environment would have been selected for in our line. They are basic tool users, so the common ancestor quite likely was, but tool use must've become much more central for our ancestors, so good tool using brains and hands help an individual to survive, produce more children and feed them, and therefore have more influence on the genome of the future population.
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