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Member (Idle past 4981 days) Posts: 228 From: jo'burg, RSA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Can Domestic Selection cause Macroevolution? | |||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Faith writes: In fact, it seems to me that the controlled forced speeded-up conditions of domestic breeding could prove macroevolution if it really occurs, but in fact what is observed to happen is the reverse of anything in the direction of macroevolution. That is, the more you select, the less genetic potential you have for further breeding, as I've pointed out many times before The problem with artificial selection is that it has a tendency to reduce genetic variation to the extreme. For example, there was a horse in the 18th Century, called Eclipse. It is estimated that 80% of all thoroughbreeds have Eclipse in their pedigree. That seems indicative of a pretty small gene pool. I couldn't pretend to be an expert in animal husbandry, but my intuition tells me we wouldn't expect to see much in the way of large scale changes in that kind of lineage. With natural selection, the selective pressures are wide and varied, with a large amount of possible solutions, both morphologically and genetically. With a large population and fecundity it could be expected that over time many different attempts to solve the problem of reproduction in a dangerous world will be tried. Some will fail, others won't. This is where macroevolutionary changes are going to occur - when the selection pressure acts much more generally all the way down to the genetic level. Breeding doesn't do this so much. We can shape the animal (and as above, in a sense this is natural selection at work of a sort), but we select out far more aggressively than nature, and pick mates for the animal trying to steer evolution's course. This is more like taking a bush and chopping it so that it is very long and narrow. It might get taller, but it is not going to widen much. Dawkins invites us to imagine a multidimensional genespace full of every animal that could ever be. Normal evolution takes small steps through the gene space and if it ever reaches a point where an animals immediate neighbours are not very fit it is likely that the tendency would be to 'retrace' a couple of steps through the gene space and try another direction. With artificial selection we choose who mates with who and how often (sort of). This is kind of like taking slightly bigger steps through the gene space, without sending exploring fingers down other avenues (ie less genetic diversity). Is it any wonder that a breed might find themselves at a dead end quicker than a species might had it been able to wander down the paths of least resistance? It is possible that artificial selection based on the desires of men will arrive at a macroevolutionary solution, but given the restrictive nature of the selection process being used, I don't think it is particularly likely. It might be that in the background, the more sluggish natural selection might steer things generally towards a more macroevolutionary solution to keeping humans company/working with humans/feeding humans etc., and in some way that macroevolutionary change was influenced by artificial selection. Short term artificial selection is unlikely to arrive at such impressive solutions.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
can parasitism not be symbiotic? Looks like you got it a bit backwards there. Crashfrog has explicitly said that parasitism is not symbiotic, his quote C says the inverse: Symbiosis is not the same as parasitism. A simple example shows the error:We have three types of Car: 1) Nissan 2) Subaru 3) Ford Ford is a type of car. No doubt about it. However, what crashfrog is saying is that the term 'Car' is not the same as 'Ford'. You are then turning around and saying 'How can you sugges that Fords are not cars?'. Parasitism is symbiotic.Symbiotic is not the same as parasitism. Subsets and supersets and all that jazz. D and E are not contradictory. Example from above, D is the equivalent of saying 'The Mondeo can be described as being a Ford, therefore it qualifies as being a car'. Quote E is saying "I never said that Fords are not cars". They are not contradictory. Can we move the discussion forward now?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
No, I haven't! Twas a mistype that's all. I meant to type 'parasitism is symbiotic'. The rest of the post is consistent with this.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
In that regard, domestic selection is natural selection. Agreed. However, with regards to the topic this doesn't matter. Hypothesis: Road cars can travel as fast as 250mph.Observation: The Nissan Micra, a road car, has a top speed of 120mph. Therefore, road cars cannot travel as fast as 250mph. It might be the case that macroevolution can result from domestic selection. It might not. That does not mean that natural selection as a general process (rather than a specific kind of natural selection) cannot result in macroevolution.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
First, there is no reason to think DS cannot create macroevolution if NS can create macroevolution. Correct. And there is no reason to think DS will lead to macroevolution just because NS can.
What really happens with selection either domestic or natural? What happens generally is a reduction in genetic variation over longer periods of time. Which is a good thing. Otherwise nature would be monstrous. We need a method to increase genetic variation and a method for pruning that variation - otherwise no adaptation will occur.
That's why you can evolve dog breeds, but the further you evolve them, the less further you can. If you aggressively breed animals you will see a reduction in variation. If 80% of modern thoroughbred racehorses share a common ancestor from the late 18th Century, then we would expect that thoroughbreeds will not exhibit a lot of diversity. We humans provide an enormous selection pressure on the animals we breed. By doing so, we are putting a strain on the populations in question - essentially we reduce the sizes of those populations. If these populations were allowed to grow and breeding was free, we might find the diversity will increase.
In other words, Darwinian evolution is really evolution in the wrong direction for what needs to take place to produce macroevolution or the type of evolution to evolve all the major classifications. Genetic bottlenecks occur in cladogenesis, they are difficult - but not always impossible for a population to recover from. If the bottleneck is severe, there may be no recovery. Take for example, web-footed otterhound - as few as 41 puppies were registered in 2007. That's one heck of a bottleneck and if web-footed otterhounds are prevented from breeding with other breeds, what genes they possess could well vanish, reducing overall diversity of dogs.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Sure, it is possible for DS to do so, but it doesn't have to. It could be the case that long term planned DS could produce large scale changes without critically reducing genetic diversity beforehand. However, if DS is done aggressively, limiting the amount of diversity - then it is perfectly possible to drive a population into extinction.
This is what evos claim, but can you show me the peer-reviewed studies that compare mutational rates (remember studies of mutational rates exist) that are considered beneficial with rates of genetic decrease due to isolation processes envisioned with microevolution. I might give it a try. Can you tell me what metric you would accept for defining a beneficial mutation?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Let's don't worry about the metric for beneficial although evos should have to present something there. Let's just see the studies showing higher beneficial mutation rates exceeding the rates of genetic decrease through isolation. We can discuss their definitions and metrics once the study is provided. I have no idea how a beneficial mutation could be discriminated from a negative or neutral one in a study to do with mutation rates.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Presumably, the evo study substantiating this most basic claim would give it's reasons. I haven't got a clue what you are asking for, hence why I asked for more detail.
Just show where a peer-review study has been done, or perhaps there hasn't been any? If it is so important, it is basic, and it undermines evolution, I'm sure an IDer has done the work necessary.
Just evos asserting something with no real published science to back it up I'm not asserting anything, rand. I spoke of a possible outcome regarding diversity and you started making demands about beneficial mutations. If you want me to show studies about increasing diversity by allowing a population to grow after a bottleneck - that'd be relevant.
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