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Author Topic:   20 years of the Creation/ID science curriculum
Beretta
Member (Idle past 5624 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 101 of 305 (454316)
02-06-2008 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by RickJB
02-06-2008 9:30 AM


Re: Ignorant crap
I have asked twice for a ID hypothesis. You have pointedly ignored these requests. How is it coming on?
I have no interest in giving you or flies only an ID hypothesis. Go'n look on an ID website. I just happen to like and support what I have read on the topic. This is not the forum for that in any case. Are you pretending you have never heard the Id hypothesis or are you asking me to copy it so that you can rip it apart? What is your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RickJB, posted 02-06-2008 9:30 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Larni, posted 02-06-2008 10:37 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 104 by RickJB, posted 02-06-2008 11:03 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 106 by AdminNosy, posted 02-06-2008 11:42 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 02-06-2008 12:29 PM Beretta has not replied
 Message 113 by FliesOnly, posted 02-06-2008 3:26 PM Beretta has not replied

Beretta
Member (Idle past 5624 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 187 of 305 (454675)
02-08-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by LinearAq
02-06-2008 10:42 AM


Re: Old evolutionist's tales
for ID to be considered science, the definition of scientific theory had to be changed
Yes it must be changed so that material causes are not the only ones allowed to be considered.If 'matter is all there is' that would be fine, but we don't know that for a fact and some things are better explained by non-material causes. In other words if purely natural mechanisms produced life on this planet then great but if there's evidence to say that that may not be so, then limiting what is allowed to be defined as science to natural causes may shut out the real cause -thus the truth of what actually happened to produce life on the planet may be excluded by what is currently accepted as the definition of science.
As an analogy, imagine you have to hypothesize on how computers came to exist but you are not allowed to mention man -you are limited to only those processes that occur within a computer -the correct answer is thus excluded a priori.
Id proposes that natural causes may not be the only explanation possible for life on this earth but it does not attempt to get into who or what the creative intelligence may be because the identity of the designer is not part of science -that would be part of a theological debate.The point is not to exclude the potentially correct answer by limiting the definition of science to material causes and passing it off as fact since it may shut out investigation into the truth of what actually did produce life.
Much like the identity of the creator being out of the domain of science, so would things like voodoo and charms be out of the realm of scientific investigation.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 188 by Trixie, posted 02-08-2008 9:44 AM Beretta has not replied
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 Message 190 by FliesOnly, posted 02-08-2008 9:49 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 193 by RickJB, posted 02-08-2008 12:58 PM Beretta has not replied
 Message 195 by nator, posted 02-08-2008 7:01 PM Beretta has not replied
 Message 196 by bluescat48, posted 02-08-2008 7:51 PM Beretta has replied

Beretta
Member (Idle past 5624 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 224 of 305 (455360)
02-12-2008 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by bluescat48
02-08-2008 7:51 PM


Old evolutionist's tales
The point is that ID cannot be scientifically tested anymore than any other pseudoscience
What about the fossil record -what does it show? Sudden appearance and stasis with variation within fairly narrow limits.Extinction for some or continuance to this day relatively unchanged over hundreds of millions of years. The only things that really change a lot are the things evolutionists imagine are related but that is only because they have this apriori adherence to naturalism so they must all be related -after all they have a common ancestor don't they -anyone with a brain knows that, don't they?
No I'm afraid the evidence is against gradualism -it's not the tree of life, it's a lawn of life with some blades shorter than others.
So in this case, evolution is the type of pseudoscience you must be talking about -the evidence is against it.As for ID, the evidence matches the theory which is why it is infinately more satisfying a theory.
The postulate IS feasible -Helloooo!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by bluescat48, posted 02-08-2008 7:51 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by nator, posted 02-12-2008 6:56 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 231 by bluescat48, posted 02-12-2008 12:36 PM Beretta has not replied
 Message 232 by FliesOnly, posted 02-12-2008 12:59 PM Beretta has not replied
 Message 233 by Percy, posted 02-12-2008 1:16 PM Beretta has not replied
 Message 234 by FliesOnly, posted 02-12-2008 2:01 PM Beretta has replied

Beretta
Member (Idle past 5624 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 236 of 305 (455625)
02-13-2008 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by PaulK
02-12-2008 2:12 PM


Re: Will we even know what ID is ?
Well short of the twenty years the ID movement will implode due to its major internal divisions.
No, I think you're wrong -there are divisions about what may have happened but we all agree on one major point -that mutation and natural selection cannot account for the complexity of what exists -we all agree that saying that random change accounts for everything is wishful thinking and is not supported by evidence -in short it is a naturalistic belief system, not science.
There is no reason to teach that belief system to kids as if it is fact if it is not proven to be true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2008 2:12 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by RAZD, posted 02-13-2008 7:40 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 239 by Vacate, posted 02-13-2008 7:42 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 242 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2008 7:58 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 02-13-2008 8:15 AM Beretta has not replied

Beretta
Member (Idle past 5624 days)
Posts: 422
From: South Africa
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 237 of 305 (455626)
02-13-2008 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by FliesOnly
02-12-2008 2:01 PM


Re: Old evolutionist's tales
In case you are unaware of how the scientific method works, Beretta, you first need to supply a test and a null hypothesis, perform experiment after experiment after experiment, wait years and years until such time that so many valid tests have confirmed so many testable hypotheses that the concept can "become " a theory.
And so in the meantime in the absence of evidence for the creative power of mutation and natural selection, you think that it is good enough to teach evolution as fact? How about leaving it as an hypothesis in the meantime?
ID says it is not good enough, the fossil evidence does not confirm the evolutionary hypothesis. how did the cambrian explosion occur. Where are all the intermediates that are absent in vast numbers? It's no good saying 'well the evidence is missing but because we are naturalists, we are sure we know what happened in any case.'Maybe you should face the fact that 'science' has not discovered how complex organisms could have developed and then keep looking into all the possibilities instead of just the naturalistic one.
If you say that naturalistic explanations are the only ones that are allowed, you may have shut out what really happened -is that science?

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 244 by Percy, posted 02-13-2008 8:17 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 245 by RickJB, posted 02-13-2008 8:33 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 246 by bluegenes, posted 02-13-2008 9:13 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 247 by FliesOnly, posted 02-13-2008 10:03 AM Beretta has not replied
 Message 273 by RAZD, posted 02-13-2008 5:37 PM Beretta has not replied

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