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Author Topic:   Evolutionary superiority
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 181 of 302 (454900)
02-09-2008 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by iano
02-09-2008 3:51 AM


Re: This Topic
Find some immaterial evidence and you may have a point.
Till then.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by iano, posted 02-09-2008 3:51 AM iano has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 182 of 302 (454906)
02-09-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Larni
02-09-2008 5:15 AM


Re: No garbage here.
Hi Larni, nice to be back. I was shut out there for a little while so I went visiting another forum. Got myself into trouble there too by sort of slagging oprah winfrey off. Why are americans so protective of her?
I knew it! I knew you were Dameeva!
Yay
It was great fun but I got them mixed up loads of times. Nobody noticed though. I thought I would be rumbled well before I retired dameeva. I feel bollock naked now though.
I'm going for a wander in the other threads. Perhaps I'll see you around. regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Larni, posted 02-09-2008 5:15 AM Larni has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 183 of 302 (454908)
02-09-2008 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Blue Jay
02-08-2008 11:46 PM


Re: This Topic
From my perspective, I find it extremely prideful to reject all material evidence in favor of belief in something based on personal feelings.
What about true beliefs built on rational feeling, life experience and logic? No proof whatsoever. I have a few that no way could be proved scientifically and no-one who hasn't had these experiences would believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Blue Jay, posted 02-08-2008 11:46 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by nator, posted 02-09-2008 6:01 PM pelican has replied
 Message 215 by Blue Jay, posted 02-11-2008 1:12 PM pelican has replied

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 5354 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 184 of 302 (454916)
02-09-2008 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Blue Jay
02-08-2008 11:46 PM


Out of the mouths of birds
Bluejay,
I'm surprised that no one's lost their head over this forum yet.
I'm surprised that you think no one has lost their head yet.
I was going to stay out of it, because I have been having difficulty controlling my passions on this subject.
Passion is difficult to control. That you for helping to clarify one of the points I'm trying to make.
I don't think it's fair to say any group of people is full of themselves. Even putting the word 'generally' before the claim doesn't make it okay. We are all condescending to each other (myself included) at least sometimes.
Again, thank you. That, of course is really the "crux of the matter", isn't it?
From my perspective, I find it extremely prideful to reject all material evidence in favor of belief in something based on personal feelings. Anyone who holds his or her own feelings as more legitimate than something that can be slapped down on the table in front of him or her obviously feels that his or her feelings are more 'valuable' than any amount of work, education or other effort. The same can be said about someone who puts those same feelings as more credible than the dedicated work, education and academic sacrifice of thousands of people over the last 150 years. I see this as, not only prideful, but ignorant, self-important and downright perverse.
I wonder why you would think I disagree with that.
Obviously, Hill Billy and others on this forum do not agree with me.
If you don't mind, exactly what evidence did you use to come to this conclusion? Perhaps your emotions were more involved in the process than you are aware.
As to your afterlife experience, I can't really speak to that, nor have I. Have I? My guess is you will find out when your time comes.

"Just cause what I say pisses you off does not mean that I said it just to piss you off." Me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Blue Jay, posted 02-08-2008 11:46 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Blue Jay, posted 02-09-2008 1:03 PM Hill Billy has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 185 of 302 (454931)
02-09-2008 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Hill Billy
02-08-2008 10:36 PM


Re: Trixie, your words betray you.
You can stomp your feet and say no if you want. You can rationalize, justify, cry, deny. Don't matter much to me. I think, based on the evidence, I see you for what you are.
A bully.
I find it interesting how during your long whine about how disagreeing with you is the same as bullying you and saying that you have "no value", you manage to take a little time off to fantasize about your posts making Trixie cry, and to point out your utter indifference to her feelings.
But I guess that's just the warm-hearted Christian in you.
Fortunately, your disingenuous fantasies are not at all likely to upset her; the insight that they inadvertently offer into your mental processes must surely compensate in unintentional humor for what they lack in charm.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Hill Billy, posted 02-08-2008 10:36 PM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Hill Billy, posted 02-09-2008 1:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 208 by pelican, posted 02-10-2008 11:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 5354 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 186 of 302 (454942)
02-09-2008 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Dr Adequate
02-09-2008 12:02 PM


Dr. your words betray you.
Dr.
You may be a master debater..... or an intellectual master baiter, I don't know but
I find it interesting how during your long whine about how disagreeing with you is the same as bullying you and saying that you have "no value", you manage to take a little time off to fantasize about your posts making Trixie cry, and to point out your utter indifference to her feelings.
I find it interesting that when you respond to my posts you SEEM to be responding to how you feel as opposed what I
wrote
in words
that you could read
if you wanted to.
Edited by Hill Billy, : No reason given.

"Just cause what I say pisses you off does not mean that I said it just to piss you off." Me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-09-2008 12:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-09-2008 1:32 PM Hill Billy has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 187 of 302 (454943)
02-09-2008 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Hill Billy
02-09-2008 10:26 AM


Re: Out of the mouths of birds
This post is very long. Sorry for the tedium.
I'm surprised that no one's lost their head over this forum yet.
I'm surprised that you think no one has lost their head yet.
I meant for this to sound more like an actual decapitating, as opposed to just losing their cool. I guess it didn't really come out right, then, did it?
Obviously, Hill Billy and others on this forum do not agree with me.
If you don't mind, exactly what evidence did you use to come to this conclusion? Perhaps your emotions were more involved in the process than you are aware.
I guess I shouldn't have aimed that one at you: I wasn't reading carefully enough or distinguishing whose posts I was reading. I apologize
As to your afterlife experience, I can't really speak to that, nor have I. Have I? My guess is you will find out when your time comes.
I guess this was also unfair to point at you. But, it wasn't really my intention to point any of this directly at anybody: that's why I did a general reply. I'm still learning the systems of communication in these forums (fora?), and it will take awhile before I figure out how to make myself clear.
Yes, perhaps my feelings are a little involved in this. I'm an evolutionist in a very religious community, and I get right-wing fundamentalists cramming hell'n'dell messages and scriptures down my throat quite often. I even get it from my own mother.
See, I'm a religious person (I'm even in the priesthood), and I go to church, and I always get nervous about everything while I'm there, because nobody there believes what I believe, and nobody's willing to even entertain thoughts of believing in evolution, because none of them has taken the time to notice that all but a few very salient points in our religion are pretty much wide open for interpretation.
So, naturally, I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours over the past few years studying everything I possibly can about evolution, Church doctrines and intelligent design, and I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing to the support the doctrinal arguments against evolution, and that there is no science to support the materialistic arguments against evolution. Furthermore, I have yet to encounter people who still argue with more than false science and personal emotions (which they insist are from the Holy Ghost, but can't give me a reason why it couldn't be something else).
This becomes a problem when their feelings are different from mine, because it isn't theoretically possible that the always-honest Holy Ghost is telling us two separate things. The only possible interpretation is that at least one of us is wrong (we can't actually infer that one of us has to be right, though). And, the one whose opinion relies only on the feeling that might be wrong and upon doctrines that don't exist, and puts this fallible promenade above someone's equal and opposite feeling and legitimate hard work clearly, from my perspective, thinks he or she is better than me (and better than all those people who've spent their time working).
Of course, they understandably say, "No, not I'm better than you, but God's better than you." Therefore, the argument that evolutionists are condescending is usually spoken by the emotionally humble (though, from my perspective, I don't see this as humble at all); while the argument that creationists are condescending is usually spoken by the intellectually humble (though, from their perspective, this is not humble at all).
From your original post:
I have read a great many posts here and one thing has become very clear.
Evolutionists feel superior.
This isn't clear to me. I think this is more of a personal interpretation than an actual fact. I also believe that many of the quotes you provided from Rahvin and Nator would be much more understandable taken in context.
I've tried a few times to debate with creationists, and, very often, my well-thought-out and rational explanations are continually turned back with the same restatements of beliefs, feelings and interpretations from before, showing no sign that they've even listened to what I said. Even worse, they sometimes say none of my hard-earned knowledge means anything, because they have faith in something different (which they haven't worked for). It's very difficult to not blow up at that, even while you're praying to God that you can be patient and understanding and can try to see the best in your opponent.
It seems that evolutionists come here to debate motivated by a desire to crush their opponents and wallow in their superiority, while creationists come to debate out of a sincere concern for our souls. After all, is it not written that " Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all living." Genesis 3:20.
I don't think this is an accurate assessment. It's probably not a good idea to judge evolutionists by what goes on in these forums. Most evolutionists are not in these forums, and most of them are very nice people who don't even engage creationists in debate at all. I think a lot of people come to these forums hoping to change people's minds with rational, well-thought-out arguments (I did, but it only took me one and a half debates with tesla to wake up from that fantasy). Others probably come to blow off steam, because of the aforementioned paucity of listening ears. Do not judge them by this: I'm sure Rahvin is a perfectly amiable and decent human being.
Furthermore (forgive me if this sounds rude or condescending), I don't believe it's possible for you to discern somebody's motivation from what they write. That kind of goes along with your signature line (it's a pretty good one, too, by the way). I think, what you're observing are the effects of an a intellectually-frustrating conversation on an intellectually-oriented person, not a direct derivative of what Nator or Rahvin actually believes.
Final thought: evolutionists and creationists come from two very different backgrounds in terms of intellectual and spiritual values, basic views on things, and what their parents and peers promote and identify with. Therefore, when we try to talk to them, we get frustrated because they won't think like us. When they try to talk to us, they get frustrated because we won't think like them. At the end of the debate, both groups think the other is stubborn, self-important and condescending, and both groups walk away thinking they won the debate.
Edited by Bluejay, : Added disclaimer at the top.

Signed,
Nobody Important (just Bluejay)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Hill Billy, posted 02-09-2008 10:26 AM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Hill Billy, posted 02-09-2008 1:31 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 193 by nator, posted 02-09-2008 6:08 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 5354 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 188 of 302 (454947)
02-09-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Blue Jay
02-09-2008 1:03 PM


Re: Out of the mouths of birds
A little birdie said:
At the end of the debate, both groups think the other is stubborn, self-important and condescending, and both groups walk away thinking they won the debate.
Them little birdies sure seem to see a lot.

"Just cause what I say pisses you off does not mean that I said it just to piss you off." Me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Blue Jay, posted 02-09-2008 1:03 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 189 of 302 (454948)
02-09-2008 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Hill Billy
02-09-2008 1:02 PM


Re: Dr. your words betray you.
I find it interesting that when you respond to my posts you SEEM to be responding to how you feel as opposed what I
wrote
in words
that you could read
if you wanted to.
Whom do you hope to deceive by saying this? Everyone reading this thread can see perfectly well that I was replying to words of yours which I not only read, but quoted. Because I wanted to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Hill Billy, posted 02-09-2008 1:02 PM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Hill Billy, posted 02-10-2008 2:46 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 190 of 302 (454963)
02-09-2008 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Hill Billy
02-08-2008 10:36 PM


Re: Trixie, your words betray you.
If you can't tell the difference between saying that someone is talking garbage and someone is garbage, then communication with you is pointless in the extreme.
You couldn't be further off the mark if you tried in your assessment of me. But, hey, I don't give a toss. Let's just say that you're far superior to me, you're so much more valuable than me and I bow to your magnificent presence. There, happy now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Hill Billy, posted 02-08-2008 10:36 PM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Hill Billy, posted 02-10-2008 3:17 PM Trixie has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 191 of 302 (455002)
02-09-2008 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by iano
02-09-2008 3:51 AM


Re: This Topic
quote:
How about rejecting all material evidence in favour of belief in something based on immaterial evidence?
Like, rejecting the idea that the rapidly approaching ground will kill you if you favor a belief, based upon your strong religious convitions, that you can fly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by iano, posted 02-09-2008 3:51 AM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 192 of 302 (455003)
02-09-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by pelican
02-09-2008 9:28 AM


Re: This Topic
quote:
What about true beliefs built on rational feeling, life experience and logic? No proof whatsoever. I have a few that no way could be proved scientifically and no-one who hasn't had these experiences would believe it.
That's trust, not religious belief.
And I'll bet they are more amenable to scientific testing that you think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by pelican, posted 02-09-2008 9:28 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by pelican, posted 02-10-2008 12:40 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 302 (455005)
02-09-2008 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Blue Jay
02-09-2008 1:03 PM


Re: Out of the mouths of birds
quote:
I think a lot of people come to these forums hoping to change people's minds with rational, well-thought-out arguments (I did, but it only took me one and a half debates with tesla to wake up from that fantasy). Others probably come to blow off steam, because of the aforementioned paucity of listening ears. Do not judge them by this: I'm sure Rahvin is a perfectly amiable and decent human being.
My motivations in the debate are thus:
1) To learn about science from those more knowlegeable than I am
2) To become a better critical thinker
3) To understand better how the anti-science crowd thinks and what they believe, so I can better combat their influence in our society
4) To confront and address falsehoods, misrepresentations, and deceptions about science and Evolution to the fencesitting lurkers.
My morivations in the debate are NOT:
1) To convert anyone to my way of thinking about evidence
2) To simply blow off steam

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Blue Jay, posted 02-09-2008 1:03 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Blue Jay, posted 02-11-2008 12:20 PM nator has replied
 Message 236 by Hill Billy, posted 02-12-2008 2:40 PM nator has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 194 of 302 (455056)
02-10-2008 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by nator
02-09-2008 6:01 PM


Re: This Topic
I don't wish you to think I am referring to a religious belief. Not at all.
I have beliefs that I trust to be true through rational feeling, life experience and logic.
Are you saying my beliefs could be scientifically tested? If I have no proof other than my expert testimony, the truth of my testimony would be based on if you believe me or not. How could this be tested?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by nator, posted 02-09-2008 6:01 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by nator, posted 02-10-2008 7:11 AM pelican has replied
 Message 198 by Larni, posted 02-10-2008 10:41 AM pelican has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 195 of 302 (455073)
02-10-2008 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by pelican
02-10-2008 12:40 AM


Re: This Topic
quote:
Are you saying my beliefs could be scientifically tested?
The only way to judge is if you give an example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by pelican, posted 02-10-2008 12:40 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by pelican, posted 02-10-2008 8:02 AM nator has replied

  
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