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Author Topic:   Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 16 of 131 (460070)
03-12-2008 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
03-12-2008 12:22 PM


True Believer writes:
To be fair, isn't it possible that the prophets were given by god images of the future but they were unable to understand those images and so wrote down in terms of what they could understand?
"To be fair", isn't it possible that unicorns roamed the plains of Mongolia 5,000 years ago? Biblical literalists cannot have their cake and eat it, which answers your post, really. If second comings are second comings, then bows and arrows are bows and arrows, and horses are horses, and swords are swords.
You don't need to be generous with Bible nuts, Taz. Give them an inch, and they'll take a million miles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 12:22 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 6:50 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 17 of 131 (460072)
03-12-2008 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by graft2vine
03-12-2008 2:15 PM


Re: Prophecy doesn't have to be fulfilled
I'm not defending Buz or Biblical literalism. What I quoted from you is about the Bible being "infallible". Lets not confuse literal with infallible. The Bible can be accurate and inerrant without being completely literal, but in parts metaphor, allegory. It is true in its intent. God could very well have done what He intended, but He is a merciful God. He is not going to continue to yell "Die sucker!" while someone is lamenting.
Then all of your comments constitute a red herring, as I was specifically addressing Buz's requirements for prophesy to be literally true, and have not been talking about possible metaphorical interpretations at all. I thought that was made perfectly clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by graft2vine, posted 03-12-2008 2:15 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 18 of 131 (460073)
03-12-2008 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by graft2vine
03-12-2008 2:15 PM


Re: Prophecy doesn't have to be fulfilled
graft2vine writes:
I do believe that all prophecy is fulfilled in Christ, who died for our sins. He died so Tyre, Babylon, Egypt, etc. doesn't have to.
So you and Buzsaw believe in different Gods. No surprises there. It seems that there are as many Christian Gods as there are Christians.
Your God died to save the people of Tyre, Babylon etc. from his own wrath?
And Christians regard pagans who believe in thunderbolt throwing Gods as having silly superstitions.
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 19 of 131 (460077)
03-12-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rahvin
03-12-2008 11:04 AM


Re: Wrong technology for the wrong times.
The interesting thing is that he's arguing that the prophet - and therefore the Bible - got it badly wrong on several counts.
Clearly he thinks that his own opinions are more reliable.
A real inerrantist would call that hubris and blasphemy.

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graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4955 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 20 of 131 (460088)
03-12-2008 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Rahvin
03-12-2008 2:46 PM


Re: Prophecy doesn't have to be fulfilled
Then all of your comments constitute a red herring, as I was specifically addressing Buz's requirements for prophesy to be literally true, and have not been talking about possible metaphorical interpretations at all. I thought that was made perfectly clear.
I apologize.

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 21 of 131 (460108)
03-12-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by bluegenes
03-12-2008 2:39 PM


bluegenes writes:
If second comings are second comings, then bows and arrows are bows and arrows, and horses are horses, and swords are swords.
Let me ask you this. Let us suppose that those prophets really did see the future (modern times no less). They were shown by god of missiles, nuclear bombs, jet fighters, etc. Without the proper words and proper contexts, how do you suppose they should have written them into words used by ancient people? Now, remember that they themselves probably didn't understand how the flying fuck those jet fighters fly or how the hell those nuclear bombs blow. All they saw were battles in the air, missiles flying to kill their targets, and bombs incinerating whole cities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 2:39 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 8:30 PM Taz has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 22 of 131 (460120)
03-12-2008 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taz
03-12-2008 6:50 PM


Tazmanian Pedant writes:
Let me ask you this. Let us suppose that those prophets really did see the future (modern times no less). They were shown by god of missiles, nuclear bombs, jet fighters, etc. Without the proper words and proper contexts, how do you suppose they should have written them into words used by ancient people? Now, remember that they themselves probably didn't understand how the flying fuck those jet fighters fly or how the hell those nuclear bombs blow. All they saw were battles in the air, missiles flying to kill their targets, and bombs incinerating whole cities.
They would describe them in terms of their culture. "Huge blasts of God's wrath" might be atomic bombs, and "grey angels of death from the heavens" might be the jet fighters, for example.
They certainly would not mistake them or associate them with men on horses with swords, shields, bows and arrows.
If you were a visionary prophet, and you saw people 2000 years in the future ingesting food rapidly through their skins aided by some mysterious technology, you wouldn't tell your flock that you'd seen our descendants in McDonalds chewing on burgers, would you?
Or would you? I'm beginning to wonder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 6:50 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Rahvin, posted 03-12-2008 9:19 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 10:01 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 23 of 131 (460124)
03-12-2008 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by bluegenes
03-12-2008 8:30 PM


Take examples from other Biblical stories of mass destruction, like Soddom. Fire and brimstone from the sky? Look to Revelations as well. When a person sees something, they try to describe what they've seen, not translate it into contemporary terms.
It's not hard for someone who has never seen modern weaponry to describe their first glimpse, and the descriptions are unlikely to simply be "swords and arrows." Think "flinging balls of fire" or "raining fire and destruction from the sky."
If you took a completely sheltered person from say, a South American Indian tribe from the middle of the rain forest and showed him a battle scene from Iraq, I seriously doubt he'd call an RPG a "bow and arrow." I'm pretty sure he'd call it some sort of weapon of the gods, and describe it as some great weapon that shoots fireballs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 8:30 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 24 of 131 (460128)
03-12-2008 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by bluegenes
03-12-2008 8:30 PM


Since I'm hard-headed and I only want to win an argument no matter the cost, here goes.
Perhaps god gave them a vague vision instead of a movie-like vision. Have you ever had a dream that seemed really real? What if their vision was more or less like a dream? What happened was they had a dream-like vision of the future but then their primitive minds translated those specific things like nuclear explosions and missiles into lightning and arrows.
And if that doesn't convince you lurkers, just think of it this way. Only an idiot would come up with a username as stupid as "bluegenes".

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 8:30 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 10:13 PM Taz has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 131 (460130)
03-12-2008 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Rahvin
03-12-2008 9:19 PM


Rahvin writes:
When a person sees something, they try to describe what they've seen, not translate it into contemporary terms.
Don't tell me, tell Taz!
So you must agree with me that Buzsaw needs urgently to go to the Middle-East and start a Luddite or Butlerian revolution. He could start an iron age arms manufacturing business. I spent some time there around 20 years ago, and I didn't see a single person carrying a sword. The situation is dire. How can you put someone to the sword if you haven't got one?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 10:16 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 26 of 131 (460134)
03-12-2008 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
03-12-2008 10:01 PM


TB writes:
And if that doesn't convince you lurkers, just think of it this way. Only an idiot would come up with a username as stupid as "bluegenes".
Easily your best argument so far.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 10:01 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 27 of 131 (460135)
03-12-2008 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bluegenes
03-12-2008 10:05 PM


bluegenes writes:
I spent some time there around 20 years ago, and I didn't see a single person carrying a sword.
A zombie apocalypse would result in a permanent halt of modern weapons manufacturing. After a decade or so of battling with zombies, the remaining humans will have to resort to using swords and bows and arrows.

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 10:05 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 10:48 PM Taz has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 28 of 131 (460139)
03-12-2008 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taz
03-12-2008 10:16 PM


Tazekiel the Prophet writes:
A zombie apocalypse would result in a permanent halt of modern weapons manufacturing. After a decade or so of battling with zombies, the remaining humans will have to resort to using swords and bows and arrows.
Keep on like this, and Buzsaw will start believing that you're a prophet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 10:16 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 11:42 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 131 (460140)
03-12-2008 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by PaulK
03-12-2008 2:37 AM


Re: Wrong technology for the wrong times.
PaulK writes:
Add to the other criticisms the fact that the prophecies are directed against nations for things that they have done - not things that they will do.
So in your view it seems that the prophet:
a) Didn't know when the offences would occur (and wrongly believed them to be in the past)
b) Didn't know when the vengeance would be enacted (and wrongly believed it to be in the near future).
c) Didn't know who the prophecy was against (see Message 5 above)
d) Added erroneous details to the prophecy.
Or perhaps the prophecy really did mean past offences (real or not), really did mean the peoples of the prophet's own time, really did mean that the vengeance was coming in the near future and the added details really are part of the prophecy.
Why attribute problems with your interpretations to errors in the Bible ?
1. Prophecy can be good or bad and if the texts are about contemporary or past events they are historical and not prophetic.
The events prophesied in the latter Ezekiel chapters are clearly prophetic of future events, some of which we have observed.
2. Obviously you choose to ignore the obvious relative to the restoration of Israel as prophesied by OT prophets and Jesus himself. That's your prerogative and I'm not wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2008 2:37 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 03-13-2008 2:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 131 (460142)
03-12-2008 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by bluegenes
03-12-2008 6:11 AM


bluegenes writes:
Everything he says indicates that he was referring to his own times and the near future. If he was getting generalized information, he shouldn't have put words like horse, sword and shield into the mouth of his God, should he? Or mentioned specific Princes, like Gog.
Bluejeans, I suggest you go here and get a lesson on Biblical genealogies. The names in Ezekiel 38 can be researched back to the times of Ezekiel so as to ascertain which modern nations he was referring.
Novices of eschatology need to appreciate the fact that they often make ignorant off the cuff remarks showing that they're out of their field of knowledge without some research. That's the way it works with science and that's the way it works with this topic.
Gog Next is Tubal. Ezekiel mentions him along with Gog and Meshech (Ezekiel 39:1). Tiglath-pileser I, king of Assyria in about 1100 BC, refers to the descendants of Tubal as the Tabali. Josephus recorded their name as the Thobelites, who were later known as Iberes.1
”Their land, in Josephus’ day, was called by the Romans Iberia, and covered what is now (the former Soviet State of) Georgia whose capital to this day bears the name Tubal as Tbilisi. From here, having crossed the Caucasus mountains, this people migrated due north-east, giving their tribal name to the river Tobol, and hence to the famous city of Tobolsk.’7
bluejeans writes:
It says swords, mate, not missile launchers. Elsewhere, your favourite epileptic mentions bows and arrows. Given your capacity for self-delusion, perhaps you can fantasise around the fact that bows are missile launchers of a sort, but you'll have to stretch it to pretend to yourself that arrows are rockets!
Try to imagine yourself as Ezekiel in his time. If he did indeed see modern missile launchers being used by horsemen, how else might he describe a tube attached to a tripod on a hillside. Methinks he'd call it some sort of a bow weapon.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by bluegenes, posted 03-12-2008 6:11 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by bluegenes, posted 03-13-2008 6:09 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
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