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Author Topic:   9/16/01, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright - "The chickens have come home to roost"
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3235
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1 of 15 (460978)
03-20-2008 7:15 PM


One of the Rev. Wright quotes supplied by molbiogirl at the "the new and improved obama thread":

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.
"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost," he told his congregation.
source

Much has been said in regards to the Rev. Wright and Barack Obama at the about cited topic. I do NOT which to pursue that matter in this topic.

While it is still pretty hard to excuse mass murder for any reason, I do agree with the Rev. Wright's statement "The chickens have come home to roost". In general, the U.S. has done considerable economic and military "misadventure" in and to other countries and peoples. Thus, is it any surprise that someone might want to take a shot at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? I don't think so.

This would include economic actions that I might go so far as to consider "economic war". My impression is that agencies such as the World Bank and the World Trade Organization primarily exist to benefit western corporations to the detriment of foreign countries and peoples.

Well, this should cause quite a storm.

Cheers,
Moose


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Grizz
Member (Idle past 1854 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 2 of 15 (460982)
03-20-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-20-2008 7:15 PM


This would include economic actions that I might go so far as to consider "economic war". My impression is that agencies such as the World Bank and the World Trade Organization primarily exist to benefit western corporations to the detriment of foreign countries and peoples.

Who should the World Bank and WTO benefit, and how? Also, please give specifics on how these agencies only benefit Western Corporations.


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GDR
Member
Posts: 3711
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 3 of 15 (460992)
03-20-2008 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-20-2008 7:15 PM


Minnemooseus writes:

While it is still pretty hard to excuse mass murder for any reason, I do agree with the Rev. Wright's statement "The chickens have come home to roost". In general, the U.S. has done considerable economic and military "misadventure" in and to other countries and peoples. Thus, is it any surprise that someone might want to take a shot at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? I don't think so.

It seems to me that Al Quaeda are happy to attack targets anywhere in the west. It would appear to me to be more about ideology than anything else.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
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GDR
Member
Posts: 3711
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 4 of 15 (461030)
03-21-2008 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-20-2008 7:15 PM


More on what Wright said
Here is more on the 9/11 sermon by Wright

Wright on 9/11


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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 2233 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 5 of 15 (461035)
03-21-2008 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-20-2008 7:15 PM


quote:
While it is still pretty hard to excuse mass murder for any reason, I do agree with the Rev. Wright's statement "The chickens have come home to roost". In general, the U.S. has done considerable economic and military "misadventure" in and to other countries and peoples. Thus, is it any surprise that someone might want to take a shot at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? I don't think so.

When I was a kid growing up in Europe, I was grateful for the things sent to us by Americans, including by American children. From powdered milk to powdered eggs, to Hershey bars, and many, many more things Europeans have forgotten, and so have all the nations of this ingrate world. Which country in this world has NOT RECEIVED a helping hand from us? And why and how come these chickens do not come home to roost?

The Rev. Wright is a jerk of the first order. He, as the Christian he is not, only sees what's wrong, not what's right with this country. I'd be happy to contribute to a fund to send him back to Africa, WHERE HE WOULD NOT WANT TO GO. He overlooks and makes nought the many success stories of blacks in this country, of which he is one. Let him take his hate message to any African country and see how far he gets and how fast he winds up in jail or dead.

Obama, regardless of his post-Wright rhetoric, is guilty by association. I will not vote for him.

It is, of course, your right by virtue of free speech to concur with his kind, but freedom of speech carries along responsibilities you seem not to recognize.


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Silent H
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 6 of 15 (461040)
03-21-2008 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ThreeDogs
03-21-2008 12:55 PM


Which country in this world has NOT RECEIVED a helping hand from us? And why and how come these chickens do not come home to roost?

You have a point that the US has over the centuries done a lot of service for other nations. I'm not sure you can say that these nations have not then had good relations with the US, nor given anything back. I think our "good will" chickens have come home to roost.

The problem, to which I'd agree with MM in the OP, is that we have also done a lot of damage to other nations. As with people, no nation is perfect. Sometimes under the guise of doing good will, we have done some very severe damage, as all we were doing was investing enough for short term self-interest. Sometimes those chickens come home to roost as well.

A great example is 9-11, to which Wright's general statement would be very accurate. The plot was hatched by AQ, which was a direct product of our meddling in Afghanistan, fanning the flames of Islamic militants. We armed and trained them in the very tactics we are now seeing used against us. Our original intent was to create this kind of machine to be used against the Soviet Union, without much thought as to what would happen once the SU lost. There is not much surprise that the Islamic militants would then begin to build their own empire and lash out at anyone they did not like. To make matters worse, the US abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviets left. So we not only empowered the militants, we made both the militants and the moderates pissed at us.

Really, 9-11 was our own monster (a monstrous chicken perhaps) coming back to hurt its creator.

Acknowledging this does not mean that America is always bad, or only deserving derision. And a hot tempered sermon certainly does not indicate that Wright feels there is no good in America at all. In anger, people often say things that are more hyperbolic than their more lucid thoughts.

Obama, regardless of his post-Wright rhetoric, is guilty by association. I will not vote for him.

There is another thread for that particular subject. However, guilt by association is a logical fallacy. To embrace it is to acknowledge a fault in yourself. I might ask, which remaining candidate can you then vote for? They all have some person that made some stupid comment or action somewhere along the line.


h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3943
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 7 of 15 (461041)
03-21-2008 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ThreeDogs
03-21-2008 12:55 PM


When I was a kid growing up in Europe, I was grateful for the things sent to us by Americans, including by American children. From powdered milk to powdered eggs, to Hershey bars, and many, many more things Europeans have forgotten, and so have all the nations of this ingrate world. Which country in this world has NOT RECEIVED a helping hand from us? And why and how come these chickens do not come home to roost?

So are you American, or from Europe? You left that pretty unclear.

The Rev. Wright is a jerk of the first order. He, as the Christian he is not, only sees what's wrong, not what's right with this country.

The things the United States does right does not erase those things we do that are wrong...and we do a lot of things that are wrong. For African-Americans, America has a lot of room to improve, as Obama said in his response. There is ample reason for a black person in America (or a member of many other minorities, for that matter) to be really, really pissed off. For those who were alive before and during the Martin Luther King era of the civil rights movement, blacks were very literally treated as second-class citizens, kept seperate from the "good white folk." This was enforced with jail time, and often brutal physical violence for which there was no legal recourse because the police and the judges were also all white. This is living memory for many Americans.

Even now, we are dealing with the results of racist policies and culture, some of which has been improved in recent times, and some of which are ongoing. Racism is far from dead in America. When we pass laws like the Three Strikes law that Rev. Wright mentioned, combined with the hugely disproportionate number of blacks currently in prison and I'm pretty pissed off, too - and I'm not black. As Obama mentioned, other issues abound and make the problems worse even without direct racist laws in place. The fact that so many black men are in prison has created a huge community of single mothers, many of whom are on welfare - and current welfare policies may be making matters worse by encouraging such behavior. The culture of debt in America, with massive credit card balances and no real savings to pass on to future generations, means that the poor (a disproportionate percentage of whom are black) have no way to accumulate wealth and opportunity generationally like most middle- and upper-class families have for decades or even centuries. The fact that schools have been desegregated by law has not desegregated schools in reality, where poorer inner-city schools tend to be overcrowded, understaffed, underfunded, and predominantly black. The net result is that blacks tend to receive a much poorer level of education in this country than most whites - which only furthers the cycle.

Here's a better question: why are you not condemning the American policies of the past and present that have mistreated African-Americans so horribly? You seem to be reacting, like most, along patriotism lines. You don't like that Rev. Wright said "god damn America." But when you actually look at the current state of blacks in America, where the downtrodden are just kicked while they're down, where despite the efforts of many to imrpove conditions things just continue to get worse, and where a huge portion of white America honestly believes that it's not a problem any more becasue they don't see it happen in their predominantly white neighborhoods in the suburbs...

Does your god really support that? Wouldn't any just god, or even a just person, condemn such policies and attitudes?

Your Jesus has said that what you do to the poor and the downtrodden, you do to him. Rev. Wright apparently sees it the way I would if I were a Christian - a god with those sensibilities would condemn America.

I'd be happy to contribute to a fund to send him back to Africa, WHERE HE WOULD NOT WANT TO GO.

Excuse me? Rev. Wright isn't from Africa, any more than I'm from the Netherlands, or you're from wherever your ancestors came from.

The racist policies of America are not excused by simply saying "oh yeah? well get the hell out then if you don't like it so much!"

Yours is the attitude of a nationalistic moron who honestly thinks that the proper response to anyone who points out a flaw in your country is to say "get the hell out!" rather than try to actually fix the problem.

He overlooks and makes nought the many success stories of blacks in this country, of which he is one. Let him take his hate message to any African country and see how far he gets and how fast he winds up in jail or dead.

His message is not one of hate. His message is a condemnation of the hate that has plagued blacks in America for over 100 years after being set "free." He hasn't overlooked any of the successes - rather he's noting that the successes are too few and too far in between! The obstacles in the face of a black child born into a poor urban family are stacked immeasurably high. Equal opportunity has not been reached, and that is surely worthy of condemnation.

Obama, regardless of his post-Wright rhetoric, is guilty by association. I will not vote for him.

If guilt by associasion is your bag, who will you vote for? Some of McCain's largest supporters have condemned America with similar language to Wrights, except their "villain" was not racism but homosexuality. A pastor, advisor, and large contributor to McCain's campaign has been quoted saying that Hurricane Katrina was the result of God's wrath on America for the gay parade that was about to be held in New Orleans!

Who do you not condemn him? Why instead do you focus on a man who is legitimately upset because he has friends, parishoners, possibly even family members who are even now being denied the equality guaranteed them by the Constitution?

I'll certainly repeat my earlier statements that some of Rev. Wrights specific complaints, such as the assertion that HIV was created by the US government as a weapon against blakcs, are absurd conspiracy-theorist insanity. But his outrage and other comments are indeed based in fact.

It is, of course, your right by virtue of free speech to concur with his kind

I think that says it all. We're all just ni**er-lovers, aren't we, ThreeDogs.


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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 2233 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 8 of 15 (461050)
03-21-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rahvin
03-21-2008 2:20 PM


quote:
It is, of course, your right by virtue of free speech to concur with his kind

I think that says it all. We're all just ni**er-lovers, aren't we, ThreeDogs.



I wanted to say that it is interesting to see you chose "HIS KIND" to mean that horror word that starts with 'N'. But it isn't interesting, it is disgusting. You make me sick. You total, complete, and absolute asshole.
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3943
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 9 of 15 (461053)
03-21-2008 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ThreeDogs
03-21-2008 3:59 PM


I wanted to say that it is interesting to see you chose "HIS KIND" to mean that horror word that starts with 'N'.

When you say such utter trash as this:

I'd be happy to contribute to a fund to send him back to Africa, WHERE HE WOULD NOT WANT TO GO.

...it makes the implication rather obvious, ThreeDogs. Even if you didn't specifically mean that implication, your position is that the black man should shut up with his outrage against America for the American policies that have so horribly mistreated blacks in the past and continue to do so in the present, and move to wherever his ancestors are from. Again, the implication is rather obvious.

Are you seriously suggesting that I am the racist, when you suggested in the preceding post that we should send a black man back to Africa?!


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3554
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 10 of 15 (461056)
03-21-2008 5:54 PM


Things not having to do with U.S. foreign policy are off-topic
My non-admin mode said in message 1:

Minnemooseus writes:

Much has been said in regards to the Rev. Wright and Barack Obama at the about cited topic. I do NOT which to pursue that matter in this topic.

Added link to quote.

Much to all of messages 7-9 do not belong in this topic. Go to the topic linked to in the above quote or find another place.

Adminnemooseus


    
Grizz
Member (Idle past 1854 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 11 of 15 (461059)
03-21-2008 6:39 PM


Minne, did you miss my questions?

Who should the World Bank and WTO benefit, and how? Also, please give specifics on how these agencies only benefit Western Corporations.


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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3235
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 12 of 15 (461061)
03-21-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Grizz
03-21-2008 6:39 PM


Moose has had a rough work week
I will try to get a response together tomorrow (Saturday 3/22).

Moose


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Utopia
Junior Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 26
From: Boston, MA.
Joined: 09-19-2006


Message 13 of 15 (462778)
04-09-2008 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ThreeDogs
03-21-2008 12:55 PM


quote:
Obama, regardless of his post-Wright rhetoric, is guilty by association. I will not vote for him.

So who would you vote for? Who has associates that have all said and done exactly the things you would approve of?

Greg P.


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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3235
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 14 of 15 (463808)
04-20-2008 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Grizz
03-21-2008 6:39 PM


WTO, WB etc. - Lame-ass response from Moose
I have found that I don't have the time, energy, or enthusiasm to pursue this matter. I'm ducking out.

I did discover a bit of interesting reading material:

EDITORIAL - Criticism of World Trade Organization, World Bank and International Monetary Fund (The Ecologist, Sept. 2000)

There is also an index page for articles from that issue. It contains some articles relevant to the World Trade Organization, World Bank, International Monetary Fund, etc. Maybe I'll actually get back to read some of them myself.

Bottom line - I'm declining to pursue the argument further, at least for now. Maybe some will find the above cited sources to be interesting reading.

Moose


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Mr Jack
Member (Idle past 307 days)
Posts: 3475
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 15 of 15 (463833)
04-21-2008 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-20-2008 7:15 PM


I'd like to point out that according to reputable charitable sources (which I can't cite off hand, but I'm going from information in Poor Story, which I recommend to everyone; it's a great read on the aid sector and problems within it) the IMF provides the most effective aid dollar-for-dollar of any organisation.
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