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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 76 of 479 (470080)
06-09-2008 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Brian
06-09-2008 7:28 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Brian writes:
Are you deliberately acting stupid?
No. The conclusion you draw from God knowing everything doesn't apply to at least one potential mechanism whereby God knows everything. There might well be other mechanisms which equally invalidate your conclusions. Heck, your conclusions don't even apply to a determining God - because there would be no 'you' to evaluate such things. 'You' would be saying what it is determined you say - irreseptive of whether it is accurate or no.
Without a mechanism whereby God knows everything you're simply flying blind Brian.

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 Message 72 by Brian, posted 06-09-2008 7:28 AM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 77 of 479 (470082)
06-09-2008 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Brian
06-09-2008 8:36 AM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey Him?
Of course. He was there to observe them disobeying him at the same moment he created them. According to the mechanism of his knowing I'm applying.
Had they obeyed then he would have been there to see that to - before he created them.
His observing what is happening doesn't mean what happens is determined to happen
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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 Message 75 by Brian, posted 06-09-2008 8:36 AM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 78 of 479 (470083)
06-09-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:40 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Excellent. There is hope for me yet.
Of course. All the way to your dying breath.
So the fact that I consider the bible a work of almost complete fiction won't count against me then?
That would depend on whether you stand before God in Christ or in Adam. If the former no, if the latter that fact will be the least of your worries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:40 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 1:20 PM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 79 of 479 (470104)
06-09-2008 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by iano
06-09-2008 9:51 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
That would depend on whether you stand before God in Christ or in Adam. If the former no, if the latter that fact will be the least of your worries.
I don't understand the first sentance here. What exactly does it mean to stand before God in Adam? What would I have to do (or not do) for this to occur?
Forgive my biblical ignorance but does this also suggest Adam went to hell? Eve too?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 9:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 6:38 PM Straggler has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 80 of 479 (470117)
06-09-2008 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dave101
06-08-2008 8:37 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
When is the last time you sacrificed a goat or fatted calf at the altar?
I had a barbecue only last weekend. God loves the smell of burning meat! (Lev 1:9)
After all, this is what is required under the Mosaic system of law to atone for yourself for the upcoming year.
Nope, the original Jewish concept offered atonement for sins already committed, not upcoming (Lev 6:1-7). Also, atonement was offered mainly for unintentional sinning, not intentional one (with a few exceptions).
How do you explain Isaiah 9:6 ad hundreds of other passages referring to the coming Christ
really? Name one!
Have you read 2nd Peter chapter 3? Peter tells you that Paul's teachings ARE SCRIPTURE and if you do not understand them then you also twist the rest of scripture to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:15 and 16)
so? The author of 2 Peter believed Paul. What is your point?
In Acts 15 Peter and the rest of the 12 debate and Peter admits that the Jews now have a hope of salvation in the manner that the Gentiles are now being saved. Acts Chapter 10 with Peter talking to Cornelius Peter mentions salvation is by "Believe in Jesus Christ" completely separate from the law. (Acts 10:42 and 43 ((all the way to 45 and on really)))
so ? what does this show other than Paul's students believed what Paul taught?!
The OT is full of references that the law is/was a temporary measure until the Christ should come...
LOL! Let's assume that's true, for discussion's sake. Jesus then contradicts the OT :
quote:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matt 5:17
So which one do you believe, Jesus or the OT ?

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 8:37 PM Dave101 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 81 of 479 (470122)
06-09-2008 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Brian
06-08-2008 5:08 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Brian writes:
God knows the future because He is God?
How could God pass on prophecies if He didn't know the future?
Why do you insist on making God a Man?
Man is constrained by time.
God exists in one great big eternal now.
He can see Himself walking in the garden talking with the first man and also see you standing before Him at the Great White Throne Judgment arguing your case that He should have convinced you to believe in Him and trust Him for salvation at the same time.
BTW God does not create people. My Mom had an egg that was fertilized by my Father's sperm and I am the result of that union. God only made it possible that could happen.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Brian, posted 06-08-2008 5:08 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Brian, posted 06-10-2008 1:32 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 82 of 479 (470130)
06-09-2008 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
06-08-2008 7:20 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
Freewill has nothing to do with it. You're talking about boundaries set by god for mankind, not for himself. Sin is just a concept in God's mind, not something he has no control over. God chooses to be offended by sin, he doesn't have to. It's like me giving my young daughter a painting set and saying "right, you can draw whatever you like but if you use yellow I'm going to disown you!". In reality, her choice of colors doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever. It's only if I try to be a bullying, controlling father that I'll impose such meaningless restrictions.
But that is not the choice God gave man.
His choice was similar to the one I gave my two boys when they got to the point they thought they knew better what they should be allowed to do or not to do. I told them as long as they sat at my table and ate my food and slept in my house they would obey the rules I gave them. If they chose to do otherwise they could find them a place to park their bodies and acquire their needs.
God made man and placed him in a perfect environment. Provided him with everything he needed. God then gave him one rule to be able to live and enjoy life in His Garden. There was one tree that man was told he could not eat the fruit from.
Man disobeyed.
God kicked man out of His Garden and man had to earn his own way. No decedent of this man has any claim to God's Garden.
By the choice of this man all mankind was separated from God.
But God made a way man can return to God's Garden.
God offers man a full free pardon through the death of God the Son on the Cross.
No one has to accept that offer but anyone can.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 06-08-2008 7:20 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 98 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 7:06 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 83 of 479 (470134)
06-09-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
06-09-2008 5:21 PM


There was one tree that man was told he could not eat tRe: atonement, what atonement?
There was one tree that man was told he could not eat the fruit from.
But why make the tree? Why make the test? Why make man such that he (or as the story goes - she) would knowingly fail the test? Why make man at all if he knows the fate of man already.
God made man knowing that he would fail the one test that God knowingly gave him and was then outraged at the result of the test.
It's ridiculous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 5:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:01 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 84 of 479 (470138)
06-09-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Straggler
06-08-2008 7:28 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
Do all realistically have the choice that you claim? Do those raised in India of the Hindu faith have equal access to your form of retribution as you (or, I suppose, I)?
No everyone in the world does not have the same opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved.
Let me make one thing plain the only choice man has is to accept God's offer or refuse it. You can choose to live in heaven but you do not have to choose to go to the lake of fire. That is the present destination of everyone who has not received God's pardon.
Is that God's fault? No.
God gave that job to the decedents of Abraham during the OT days.
God then Gave the Church the job of making disciples, baptizing them and teaching them the things He commanded.
God's Church has failed to do its job. Therefore it is the Churches fault.
The Devil has so poluted the Churches that today most of them belong to him not God.
But there are those who keep sharing the gospel throughout the world.
That is the reason there are some here at EvC that keep on keeping on.
At least you had an opportunity.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2008 7:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 85 of 479 (470140)
06-09-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
06-09-2008 5:38 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
So the vast majority of the population of the world today (including myself ) are destined to the fires of hell according to you.
In many (most?) cases this seems to be more a matter of luck in terms of where one was born and what the predominant culture is there. How can God justify condemning an unquestioning hindu from India whilst rewarding an unquestioning Christian from Dallas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 5:38 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:14 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:22 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 86 of 479 (470144)
06-09-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Straggler
06-09-2008 5:27 PM


Re: There was one tree that man was told he could not eat tRe: atonement, what atonement?
Straggler writes:
But why make the tree? Why make the test? Why make man such that he (or as the story goes - she) would knowingly fail the test? Why make man at all if he knows the fate of man already.
God made man knowing that he would fail the one test that God knowingly gave him and was then outraged at the result of the test.
If man had not disobeyed there would be no you. There would be no me.
Yes God see's man disobeying His rule and at the same time He see's you discussing this topic on EvC. He also see's those trying to share His free pardon with you. He see's your decision and the final conclusion of your case.
As I have said many times with God there is only one great big now.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:27 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 87 of 479 (470145)
06-09-2008 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by iano
06-09-2008 8:06 AM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
The boundaries were indeed set by God. He is sovereign and I see no reason why he doesn't justifiably get to set them (as if he needed our permission).
The issue is not whether he needs permission or not, the issue is that he is the one with absolute authority and power over when and where to set the boundaries and who to let in. His reluctance to let people in without them paying some kind of price (to him) is in stark contrast with his alleged love and care for mankind.
Simply put, if you really love and care for someone you forgive them without terms & conditions. Your god is unable/unwilling to do that.
I'm not sure what you mean by sin just being a concept. If so the concept it that sin is operating outside Gods boundaries.
I'm saying that sin is just what god says it is. Like me saying that I don't like yellow. However I'm not going to disown my daughter if she draws a yellow painting. See, I can do that and I'm not even all-powerful and all-loving!
If you love what is good you must hate what is evil. If you love kids you must hate the actions of a paedophile.
Unless you've created paedophiles and know exactly what they're going to do and when they're going to do it. In which case saying that you love kids and hate paedophiles is grossly hypocritical.
Legend writes:
Freewill has nothing to do with it. If you already know what's going to happen, then when it does happen it's a foregone conclusion. An inevitable result.
iano writes:
Not if your knowing what is 'going' to happen arises out of your being simultaneously present at the event of it's happening. Present at the event of a person actually choosing. That observation gets fed back to before the event so that you know what's going to happen because it has happened.
Put it another way, if all events are now to God (our past, our present and our future) the before occurs at the same moment as the after and your point flounders.
You know when in an earlier post I said: "You can continue with your mental acrobatics..". That's exactly why I said it!
But a forgiven money debt doesn't disappear like magic.
Yes, but that's the forgiver's problem, not the forgiven's. As far as the forgiven party is concerned he has been forgiven. End of.
Alternatively, if I want what that money could have bought then I pay for it from my own funds. And suffer in that regard.
Yes, but that's the forgiver's problem, not the forgiven's. As far as the forgiven party is concerned he has been forgiven. End of.
Either way, forgiveness isn't issued for free. The forgiver sacrifices in one way or other.
Yes, but that's the forgiver's problem, not the forgiven's. As far as the forgiven party is concerned he has been forgiven. End of.
In order to forgive God must pay. Man, if deciding to retain possession of their debt to God, gets to pay for it in Hell. That is the price demanded of man
Could you point out, in the definition of forgiveness I quoted in the previous post, where are the terms 'retention of debt', 'payment', 'price' being mentioned?
Let me quote again:
quote:
Forgive - 1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b: to grant relief from payment of 2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :
Note the terms 'give up claim', 'grant relief from payment', 'cease resentment'. You see, forgiveness is the exact opposite of what your god is doing.
The issue of forgiveness is secondary to the issue of God defeating rebellion. God will bring all people to their knees in the end - every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. He will convince all that they are sinners and wrong and evil - some on this side of death, some on the other side of death.
To those who would surrender during a time of dispensation of mercy he will treat mercifully. To those who surrender by virtue of their ability to fight on being destroyed he will treat mercilessly.
So, it's incorrect to say that you have to put your soul up as collateral for forgiveness. You're going to hand your soul over to God whatever the case - for the rebellion will be certainly crushed.
Nice preaching. Love the veiled threats. Now back to the point: will you finally admit that (a) your god doesn't forgive, he just tolerates if you pay the right price and (b) the whole atonement doctrine is just an ill-thought concoction of Christianity in order to claim its Jewish roots.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 8:06 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:34 PM Legend has replied
 Message 97 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 7:03 PM Legend has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 88 of 479 (470148)
06-09-2008 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
06-09-2008 5:46 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
In many (most?) cases this seems to be more a matter of luck in terms of where one was born and what the predominant culture is there. How can God justify condemning an unquestioning hindu from India whilst rewarding an unquestioning Christian from Dallas?
First things first. God does not condemn anyone to anything.
Man is condemned already.
The first man took care of that by separating mankind from God.
Why does God have to justify Himself?
To whom does He have to justify Himself?
It is not God's fault if I have failed Him.
It is not God's fault if the Church has failed Him.
Paul declared the gospel had been preached to the world in his day.
When my ancestors came to America they found natives worshiping the Great Spirit in the happy hunting grounds. Who told them?
Has it ever occured to you that people everywhere have heard of some kind of God. Religion is everywhere.
It is not God's fault if man has failed to teach the all things that Jesus commanded him to.
God Bless,
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:46 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 89 of 479 (470150)
06-09-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
06-09-2008 5:46 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
So the vast majority of the population of the world today (including myself ) are destined to the fires of hell according to you.
How about according to:
John writes:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God said He loved you.
His Son came not to condemn you. But that you might be saved.
You and anybody else is condemned because you/they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I can not help what you believe. I can only tell you what God said.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : add signature

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:46 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 90 of 479 (470151)
06-09-2008 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICANT
06-09-2008 6:14 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
It is not God's fault if man has failed to teach the all things that Jesus commanded him to.
Nor is it the fault of the Hindu child raised to believe in Hinduism that they do not believe in Jesus Christ.
What is their fate according to you?
If we are looking for fault wose fault is any of mans misdoings if God created mn knowing he would misdo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:46 PM Straggler has replied

  
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