Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 106 of 479 (470278)
06-10-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ICANT
06-09-2008 6:34 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
ICANT writes:
I was under the impression that God created the Devil or whatever you want to call him. The Devil deceived the first woman and the man chose the fate of the woman. From that time until this the Devil and man have been creating all these bad things everyone keeps talking about.
ah yes, the old cop-out of "when good things happen it's because of God but when bad things happen it's because of the devil/man/etc."
If God is all-powerful and and he does interfere in our lives then he is responsible for bad things happening as well as good ones.
Of course you could claim that God doesn't interfere, in which case nothing, good or bad, is due to him.
Or you could claim that God isn't all-powerful so he can't stop bad things from happening.
Or you could claim that God just doesn't care about mankind, so he allows bad things to happen.
which one will it be ?

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 06-10-2008 7:05 PM Legend has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 107 of 479 (470336)
06-10-2008 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Brian
06-10-2008 1:32 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Brian writes:
ICANT writes:
Why do you insist on making God a Man?
I'm not.
I'm referring to God as male because the vast majority of the Bible refers to God as male.
I was not talking about sex. I was talking about limiting God as man is limited.
Brian writes:
ICANT writes:
BTW God does not create people. My Mom had an egg that was fertilized by my Father's sperm and I am the result of that union. God only made it possible that could happen.
Who created your soul?
The man and woman that was made in the image of God had a body, mind, and spirit (soul). All of their decendents have all three.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Brian, posted 06-10-2008 1:32 AM Brian has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 108 of 479 (470346)
06-10-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Straggler
06-10-2008 11:01 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
This is like a government making secret laws and then arresting peple when they unknowingly break them. Outrageaous.
Did the Queen come over to your house when you reached the age of understanding and explain the laws in England to you.
Or did your parents teach them to you.
Is the Queen responsible for their decisions to teach you or not to teach you.
If your parents do not teach you then will the bobbies let you go your way because you are ignorant of the laws?
Straggler writes:
If the God you describe ran a nation
First God does not run a Nation.
Second God does not run the planet earth.
The devil runs planet earth within the bounds set by God.
Man has a choice to follow the ways of the world which is controlled by the devil.
OR
Man can choose to follow after the ways of God.
Your choice.
You personally have no one to blame for the outcome but yourself.
Straggler writes:
Honestly ICANT it seems you are too fearful to stand up for what is right.
I got no problem with standing up for what is right.
I wore my country's uniform for that purpose, 3rd Army.
I have fought many battles during my lifetime against many wrongs.
The problem is most of the things I see as wrongs you would see as rights.
Straggler writes:
If he exists it is time we stood up to this tyrant and let him know that such unjust punishments will not be tolerated lying down. If we all stand together we can change these wicked ways.
He does exist.
The devil and a third of the angels of heaven tried to bring God down from His throne and failed. I have a sneaky idea they are a lot more powerful than us mortal beings.
But you are welcome to join the devil and his angels in their battle
against God if you desire. I will warn you I read the final chapter in the book and the devil lost. He ends up in the lake of fire that was prepared for him and his angels.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2008 11:01 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2008 6:56 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 479 (470352)
06-10-2008 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Legend
06-10-2008 1:51 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
If God is all-powerful and and he does interfere in our lives then he is responsible for bad things happening as well as good ones.
Where did you get the idea from that God interferes with our lives?
Legend writes:
Of course you could claim that God doesn't interfere, in which case nothing, good or bad, is due to him.
God will interfere in the lives of His children. Those who have been born again. He can and does bless them when they are obedient and when they are disobedient He will chastise them.
Why does He do these? Because He loves His children.
If God is not your Father you do not have to obey Him, you can do as you please.
God does not have anything to do with any decision you make or anything you do in this life if you have not been born again.
You only have to answer to your father the devil. His motto is if it feels good do it. That is why most people choose the ways of the world.
Legend writes:
Or you could claim that God isn't all-powerful so he can't stop bad things from happening.
God is all powerful.
God will put an end to all bad things one day in His time.
Legend writes:
Or you could claim that God just doesn't care about mankind, so he allows bad things to happen.
How many people on death row do you know that you would willingly lay down your life so they could be free?
Jesus loved you enough to die so you could get off death row and live eternally, in a better place than the one you are doomed for if you are not born again.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Legend, posted 06-10-2008 1:51 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Legend, posted 06-12-2008 3:25 AM ICANT has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 110 of 479 (470365)
06-10-2008 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Straggler
06-10-2008 10:47 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
If all we need is a good heart without even being consciously aware of god or any of the related paraphenalia then this all seems much more reasonable than ICANTs view (for example).
I wasn't referring to the goodness or badness of a persons heart when I said that God sees it. The heart would be that which sits (hierarchially) at the head of a person, under it's command comes the mind and under the minds command comes the body. That you could see the produce of my heart as they manifest through my actions and cannot see the produce of a childs heart (whose mind and body are not yet in a position to produce) doesn't mean God cannot see a childs heart.
Hold in your mind that fact that we are created in eternity, and that all eternal beings (and their hearts) are the same age.
The very first thing I can retro-remember about the day after the night I was born-again was this deep sense that "everything is going to be alright somehow". Like really alright in a way that didn't refer to the day to day troubles I might face this day or the next. I didn't at all connect it with a prayer I had prayed to an unseen and unbelieved in God the night before. It was only over the following weeks that the connection dawned on me. Granted I had prayed to this God-of-the-Bible God. But the prayer itself wasn't a magic potion - it was a vehicle for expressing something I had become convinced of. Something a primative person in some rain forest somewhere could equally become convinced of. And something for which a suitable-to-location vehicle of expression could be provided for - by God.
They too could awake with the sense that "everything was going to be alright somehow" without ever hearing more about who was behind the sense so provided to them. And how could they be expected to know, unless someone tells them - asked Jesus.
Good question
It does however beg the question as to why we need the bible, religion, punishments, rewards or anything else.
It's not so much a question of what you need. It's a question of what God needs to convince you. He has various tools and one of them is the written aspect of the gospel. Remembering that the world was spoken into existance and that Jesus is described as The Word, Gods word is not just any old word. A verse in the book of Romans converted a Roman Catholic monk called Martin Luther for instance.
But if that's not your thing (and for many unbelievers the Bible is just dull and as impenetrable as dirty dishwater) God has other means.
Punishment and reward? Well the gospel is good news. And the only thing that makes it good is the bad news it dispels - for those who believe. So you have to give the bad news as well as the good in order to present an actual gospel. It's not fair to folk to talk about "buddy Jesus and what a friend he wants to be to you". Like, if you want plain speaking about the indescribable horror that awaits those he would dearly like to save then you'll find no one talking about it more than "buddy Jesus"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2008 10:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2008 5:32 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 111 of 479 (470647)
06-11-2008 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Legend
06-09-2008 7:43 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
oh, I see! we're now moving the goalposts are we?! The 'God who forgives' has now become 'God who forgives only those who don't oppose him'. Nice one!
Not at all moving the goalposts. Just describing where it is they are for you. You've been off singing from another hymn sheet, you see.
Your surrendering is something God manages to achieve through his efforts. Given that you are brought to your knees and rendered powerless to resist any longer by his outsmarting you, you shouldn't see his forgiveness as conditional upon you doing anything. He defeats you. Then forgives you.
And if he doesn't manage to defeat you? Well, you can pat yourself on the back for a job well done. You win and get what you held out to the bitter end for. An eternal existance without God.
He's fair is God. He lets you have your way if you insist.
Simply put, if you really love and care for someone you forgive them without terms & conditions. Your god is unable/unwilling to do that. And you still haven't shown otherwise.
Parents will love there heroin addict son but they cannot, for the good of the rest of the household, permit him to live in the family home. The forgiveness for money stolen and hearts broken awaits. But cannot be delivered until the son repents. There is no talking to a heroin addict - they can't receive forgiveness in the state they are in.
Forgiveness would just float uselessly in the air until such time as its picked up by the recipient
God didn't create paedophiles. He created the potential that people would turn themselves into paedophiles
LOL! that's like saying "our armed forces didn't kill civilans, they just created the potential for civilians to be killed by dropping large amounts of bombs on their houses". Priceless.
It's not remotely like saying that at all.
Enough.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 7:43 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Legend, posted 06-12-2008 7:44 PM iano has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 112 of 479 (470653)
06-11-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by iano
06-10-2008 8:50 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
The very first thing I can retro-remember about the day after the night I was born-again was this deep sense that "everything is going to be alright somehow". Like really alright in a way that didn't refer to the day to day troubles I might face this day or the next.
We all experience this from time to time. I would question that God is the cause or reason for this. After a bitch of a day I recently sat in my garden with my son and pointed out the stars to him. I told him that we were seeing them as they were millions of years ago and described what little I know about the formation and deaths of these amazing phenomenon. He is too little to understand the words never mind the concepts but he sat on my lap, looked at the stars and listened quite contentedly. I have rarely felt such love and selflessness. At that point the feeling you describe of knowing that everything would be OK in a way that transcends the mundane day to day of existence swept through me.
I have no doubt you have felt this sort of thing. I have no doubt that you deeply love your God in a way that can inspire these sorts of feelings.
However I do doubt that the object of your love exists in any way shape or form that actually exists beyond your mind and your mind alone.
Like, if you want plain speaking about the indescribable horror that awaits those he would dearly like to save then you'll find no one talking about it more than "buddy Jesus"
It is this indescribable horror, the fact that God even allows such a thing to exist and his criteria for deciding who does and does not receive this abominable fate that is the question here.
Why would a loving God create such a harsh punishment? Is not separation from God punishment enough?
Who exactly does not meet the criteria required to avoid such a fate? I am sure that my reason and rationality will forbid me from ever being a believer in the way that you are. For this seemingly minor "crime" am I to face an eternity of torture? Likewise those who remain sworn Hindus (for example) to their dying breath by virtue of culture and opportunity if nothing else.
What is the exact fate of all of us good hearted but very consciously aware non or "wrong" believers (in your opinion)?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 06-10-2008 8:50 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 06-11-2008 5:47 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 114 by iano, posted 06-11-2008 6:48 PM Straggler has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 113 of 479 (470654)
06-11-2008 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Straggler
06-11-2008 5:32 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
I have no doubt you have felt this sort of thing.
No doubt I did. Except this time the 'feeling' stayed for good. That never happened before. 6 years is a long time for a feeling to persist.
-
I have no doubt that you deeply love your God in a way that can inspire these sorts of feelings.
Love God? I wish I could say that. Perhaps with a small part of my heart, soul and mind.
What is love? Because if love is a feeling then I can say that I feel love for what God represents and for what God does for me and others. But love him himself - like I love my fiance herself? I can safely say I don't love him that way. Although that lack is a thorn in my side.
I remember reading someones prayer soon after I became a believer. It went ...
Lord I don't love you
I don't even want to love you
But I want to want to love you.
And it fit me to a tee. 6 or so years on I can safely say that the middle line has shifted a little. There are times I do really want to love God. It's a slow process though. Sure, but slow.
-
However I do doubt that the object of your love exists in any way shape or form that actually exists beyond your mind and your mind alone.
Sanity dictates that you doubt as you do. The only thing that would convince you of my case would be God demonstrating his existance to you in no uncertain terms.
Nothing less should do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2008 5:32 PM Straggler has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 114 of 479 (470658)
06-11-2008 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Straggler
06-11-2008 5:32 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
It is this indescribable horror, the fact that God even allows such a thing to exist and his criteria for deciding who does and does not receive this abominable fate that is the question here.
Why would a loving God create such a harsh punishment? Is not separation from God punishment enough?
Globally speaking there are three different positions we can be in w.r.t. God:
- with God fully
- without God fully
- with/without God partially.
Pointing to the simplistic, but not-all-too-far-from-the-mark example of " darkness is the absence of light, cold is the absence of warmth, evil is the absence of good" consider that this life to best reflect the latter of the three.
Life: a kind of middleground, where joy and horror are constant (potentially at least) bedfellows. Us in the middle, experiencing both at a moments interval.
Rather than consider Hell as literal hellfire and brimstone, as a type of torture chamber we are thrown into, you might begin to consider Hell as a place where every aspect, angle and scent of God is absent. Taken for granted, granted, but it's Gods blessing that enables all people the ability to enjoy things, he pours out sunshine on the righteous and unrighteous alike. It's his general provenance that allows us all to take pleasure in comfort, to thrill at love of sons, to find succour in companionship.
To imagine the environment of Hell you only have to imagine Gods withdrawal from issuing forth in the above way. To withdraw all of himself means withdrawing that which sustains these abilities in us. For example...
Your relationship with your son is based in part on an ability to place another first. That's a gift from God to you which counters what sin in you would tend towards. More than counters in this case - bursts forth and dispels what sin would have you do. If your son stays awake all night crying and annoys you, self-sacrifice steps in to repair the momentary damage. Love for him (and the thrill of enjoyment for you in loving him) can continue. What sustains you is your conscience, your patience, your ability to love him - all abilities blessed to you by God. Abilities he is under no obligation to issue to you. God owes you nothing.
Imagine that ability withdrawn from you and you can only sink into annoyance and hate for your son. God and his effect on you will have departed. All that remains is sin in you, an infection tending you towards self-importance and selfishness and the demand that your enjoyment, your priorities, your quiet evening watching the footie come first.
So is the dilemma answered, whereby the heaven-bound can look upon their hell-bound wives, husbands and children without being tormented by that sight. It would seem an impossible conundrum to resolve were it not for the fact that the Hell-bound will have been stripped of that element of God which formerly shone forth from them. God shining through them was what made them attractive at all - as sunlight through a stained glass window. Without light, they are a shadow of their former selves, as lovable and attractive as corpses.
Shadow is that which reflects no light - for the light which shines in us all, in this life, will have departed for good. You are left on your own. In shadow, in a Hell of your own design.
(Not that it is for me to say that any man is beyond redemption but I personally believe it is as possible to go past that point in this life as it is to be saved at the moment of your dying breath. I know a person who was in the team of psychologists who first interviewed Peter Suthcliffe (the yorkshire ripper) after his capture and arrest. Well experienced in his field, this unbeliever confessed to having been completely unnerved by eyes "in which the light of humanity was completely extinguished". A dead man walking?)
-
Who exactly does not meet the criteria required to avoid such a fate? I am sure that my reason and rationality will forbid me from ever being a believer in the way that you are. For this seemingly minor "crime" am I to face an eternity of torture? Likewise those who remain sworn Hindus (for example) to their dying breath by virtue of culture and opportunity if nothing else.
The people who will be lost are the people described in the Bible as "refusing to love the truth". Specifically, refusing to submit to the truth that God attempts to reveal to a person about themselves. It's not a subtle, religious thing. It's as plain as the nose on your face if prepared to admit to it. We're bad at core.
Everyone will admit to failings, but the tendency is to immediately soften the self examination with ones good points. One's 'redeeming features". Take me: "He's a bit of an arrogant git, but he's a damn good engineer" it could be said by many of me. What God attempts to do is to stick with the truth alone. To concentrate on that which would keep me from being as I need to be to be in his presence. Look at the sin-infected bad, not the God-given good. But such exposure is painful for sinners. Sin within urges us to run from truth as werewolves urge to run from light.
What God looks to is yearning in a sinful heart to be other than sinful. A yearning which desires to walk in goodness and light but despairs over and over again about its own love of dark thoughts, words and deeds. Religion asks a man to combat his evil lusts, to suppress them, to conquer and master them. Religion is of satan for we all know that we are not able to conquer completely. God doesn't ask any such thing - for to ask such a thing of a sinful man is to ask of him the impossible. Instead God permits man to fall evermore into depravity in order that man conclude for himself that "I am lost without God-knows-what"
But it cannot be so that a man cannot refuse to love this truth about man. Man is permitted the ability to wriggle free from that which would convince him. To deny to the end that he is a hopeless sinner. To refuse to turn to the one person who can resolve his problem for him. Namely God.
A man doesn't have to do anything to save himself. He need only conclude that his thirst is desparate and no more. It's God's job to lead that horse to water.
-
What is the exact fate of all of us good hearted but very consciously aware non or "wrong" believers (in your opinion)?
As I say, I'm pretty sure Heaven will be filled with people of all nations, pre-Christ and post-Christ, heard of Christ/didn't hear of Christ, heard of Christ per Islamic view / heard of Christ per Hindu view / etc.
Your barking up a tree of the wrong kind of detail. The issue is totally personal and is between you and God. No one gets to hide behind a religion.
Remember the garden and Gods request of man that he come and face God. So is it with all of us.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2008 5:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 3:42 PM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 115 of 479 (470659)
06-11-2008 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ICANT
06-10-2008 6:37 PM


The Ultimate Tyrant
Did the Queen come over to your house when you reached the age of understanding and explain the laws in England to you.
No but nor was I legally responsible for my actions as a minor.
Or did your parents teach them to you.
Some yes. Some no. My parents were far from ideal role models
Is the Queen responsible for their decisions to teach you or not to teach you.
The queen is a pointless distraction and complete waste of time and money (but that is maybe another topic). The real lawmakers can be demonstrated against and ultimately voted out if they get too full of themselves and start creating unreasonable laws.
If your parents do not teach you then will the bobbies let you go your way because you are ignorant of the laws?
I love your attempt at invoking the queen as some sort of argument and your use of bizzare pseudo British vernacular to make your point. Is that really how you guys see us?
Take it eazy guvnor. Aint no argey bargey to be ad ere.
The "bobbies" (we usually call them police officers or, if you want to get colloquial, "filth") don't make the laws. Nor do they act as judge jury and executioner. They make the arrests and judges/juries deal out the verdicts and punishments. I think we might even have originated this system of justice..........
First God does not run a Nation.
Second God does not run the planet earth.
The "state boundaries" are irrelevant. God makes the rules. God deals out the verdicts. God decides the punishments. God is the lawmaker, the police, the judge, the jury, the executioner and every step in-between and beyond.
God is the ultimate tyrant be any definition that ignores the fact he is God and supposedly can do no wrong.
The devil runs planet earth within the bounds set by God.
And who allows the devil to run Earth? Why does he do this? Does he enjoy suffering? Or is he just on the ultimate power trip?
You personally have no one to blame for the outcome but yourself.
Ignorance, or even objection, to utterly unjustifiable laws is not a reason to blame anyone. Any decent God, any decent ruler, would take these things into account. Your God is not decent. He is a tyrant.
The problem is most of the things I see as wrongs you would see as rights.
I very much doubt it
The point is that the actions that you believe your God takes would be, if carried out by any other being, condemned as evil and wrong by you, me and almost everyone else.
You excuse and make exception to these actions of God ony because he is God. But who says God can do no wrong? Ah yes of course God!! The ultimate in circular reasoning and the ultmate tyrant's ultimate aim. Namely unquestioning acceptance that all he does is good
Only because you and others like you think God can do no wrong do you accept these atrocities as anything other than that which they are. You devise convluted reasons and exceptions as to why normal moral judgments do not apply and give your God a free pass to do whatever he says he should do. Unquestioningly. This is the dream ticket of the ultimate tyrant. What more could a tyrant wish for than a populace who will forgive and even praise any action? No matter how evil or unjust?
The devil and a third of the angels of heaven tried to bring God down from His throne and failed. I have a sneaky idea they are a lot more powerful than us mortal beings.
But you are welcome to join the devil and his angels in their battle
against God if you desire. I will warn you I read the final chapter in the book and the devil lost. He ends up in the lake of fire that was prepared for him and his angels.
Jeez I am no satanist. Nor do I aim to end up in a river of fire. But I do believe you are wrong.
I have a theory - If there is a devil he has positioned himself as the God that you and those like you believe in. It is the ultimate con trick. He can do no wrong because those who think they worship God will tell us why morality does not apply to this being that they woship. Any atrocity, any punishment, any evil is excused as Gods will by those who "know" God is unquestioningly good and that his actions are thus justified.
If the God you worship is the devil in disguise it answers a lot of questions about the world and the pain evil and suffering it contains. It even explains the delusion that God loves you. Would not a powerful devil be capable of tricking those who would defend his evil actions into thinking that they do so out of love for a God of good?
Think about it.
Of course you will "know" that the God you worship is not the devil and is ultimately good. But this all part of the great cosmological con. The ultimate omnipotent tyrant has made you believe this so of course you will not doubt it and probably never will.
But you are welcome to join the devil and his angels in their battle against God if you desire
I am not the one who would justify the condemnation and eternal punishment of those whose only fault is ignorance. You are.
Which one of us can truly be said to be morally "good" regarding such a question?
The only path to free yourself from this tyranny of evil is to listen to reason and rationality and to question that which you "know" to be true. Join me on this quest
Enjoy.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ICANT, posted 06-10-2008 6:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 2:55 AM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 116 of 479 (470724)
06-12-2008 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Straggler
06-11-2008 6:56 PM


Re: Responsibility
Straggler writes:
No but nor was I legally responsible for my actions as a minor.
At what stage in life do you become responsible for your actions in England?
Straggler writes:
The queen is a pointless distraction and complete waste of time and money
I thought she was a very nice lady when I saw her in the Cayman Islands.
I lived in a British Commonwealth for 15 years. Our police force had many young officers come from England, and other UK country's.
One of the men in the Church I was involved in there was a Sergeant so several of the young officers came to services. They are the one's who talked about the bobbies. They also talked about police officers.
Straggler writes:
God makes the rules.
Correction God made the rules. The first man broke them.
God made a covenant with the children of Abraham. That covenant relationship had many rules and benefits if the rules were obeyed.
But that has nothing to do with the condition of man as far as his eternal destiny is concerned.
The only thing involved in that is the first man sold mankind in slavery to the devil.
God made a way man could be redeemed from the fate brought about by the disobedience of the first man.
Straggler writes:
And who allows the devil to run Earth?
The devil was running the earth before man was.
Who created the devil? God did.
Who put the devil in charge of the earth? God did.
If there was no devil there would be no choice.
Straggler writes:
Ignorance, or even objection, to utterly unjustifiable laws is not a reason to blame anyone.
Ignorance of the Law is no excuse. That is the point I was trying to make.
You try to plead ignorance to the Law before a judge and see how far you get with that defense.
Straggler writes:
The point is that the actions that you believe your God takes would be, if carried out by any other being, condemned as evil and wrong by you, me and almost everyone else.
Let me get this straight.
If there was a person on death row and was to be put in the gas chamber for crimes committed. All appeals had be used up the judges have upheld sentence. The man is then scheduled for 6 AM the following day. The President of the US offers a pardon to the person and he refuses the pardon. At the appointed time the sentence is carried out.
Now you want me to jump up and down and scream and hollow that the President should be tarred and feathered because the man would not accept the pardon. By this heinous act the President becomes a tyrant not worthy of existing.
Come on, get real. That is exactly what God did for you. He had someone take your place and serve your sentence. He then offered you a full pardon. It is your choice to receive it or reject it.
Straggler writes:
I am not the one who would justify the condemnation and eternal punishment of those whose only fault is ignorance. You are.
Straggler I have spent 46 years of my life informing people of the consequences of disobedience to God. I have spent much of my income helping others. I have always pastored churches that could not afford to pay a minister. That made it necessary for me to work.
Had I applied myself to just making money as many do I would have more than I could waste in the rest of my life.
So you talk about my unloving God all you want. You call Him a tyrant all you want. He paid your sin debt because He loved you. If you die and end up in the lake of fire it will be your fault I don't care who you want to blame.
Straggler writes:
Which one of us can truly be said to be morally "good" regarding such a question?
I could care less whether you feel more morally good than I am.
I only care that I have done what God said for me to do not what you or anyone else thinks about what I should do, or should not do.
You see that is what makes God so wonderful to me. He knew all my faults and failures. He knew every time I would disobey Him as well as obey Him.
He still loved me enough to forgive me to restore me to the position that the first man was in before he disobeyed and ate the fruit.
Straggler writes:
Join me on this quest
Sorry I have no desire to be free from the restrictions of God.
So you will have to make that journey without me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2008 6:56 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 8:45 AM ICANT has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


(1)
Message 117 of 479 (470729)
06-12-2008 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
06-10-2008 7:05 PM


Re: Interference
ICANT in post 109, line 3 writes:
Where did you get the idea from that God interferes with our lives?
ICANT in post 109, line 5 writes:
God will interfere in the lives of His children.
err...was the first one a trick question ??!
ICANT writes:
Jesus loved you enough to die so you could get off death row and live eternally, in a better place than the one you are doomed for if you are not born again.
ah yes, the good ol' Christian protection racket. God loves you so much that he's going to break your legs if you don't join his mob.
what a despicable, petty and evil godlet you worship!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 06-10-2008 7:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 1:05 PM Legend has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 118 of 479 (470737)
06-12-2008 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by ICANT
06-12-2008 2:55 AM


Re: Responsibility
I thought she was a very nice lady when I saw her in the Cayman Islands.
I am sure she was but the position she holds is, in my opinion, pointless and archaic.
God made a covenant with the children of Abraham. That covenant relationship had many rules and benefits if the rules were obeyed.
But that has nothing to do with the condition of man as far as his eternal destiny is concerned.
The only thing involved in that is the first man sold mankind in slavery to the devil.
God made the devil including his wickedness.
God made man including his potential for wickedness.
God made the rules that man had to obey knowing he would fail.
God knew the outcome of all of his creations at the point of creation.
I don't really see how you can devolve God of all responsibility here?
The bottom line is that if God created all he is at root as responsible for the existence of wickedness and evil as he is good. Obviously.
If he did not want wickedness to exist he simply should not have created it. Obviously.
If he does not want wickedness to exist he should simply banish it. Obviously.
God made a way man could be redeemed from the fate brought about by the disobedience of the first man.
Such tests would be very unnecessary if eveil was just banished from existence. Or even better never created. By God.
If there was no devil there would be no choice.
Why create a choice?
Why create in man a being so evidently bad at making the right choices?
The misery resulting from this test that he knew we would fail is all just very unneceesary.
Ignorance of the Law is no excuse. That is the point I was trying to make.
You try to plead ignorance to the Law before a judge and see how far you get with that defense.
First offence and a law that you can conceivably demonstrate that you were unaware of and the sentance is likely to be very light indeed. Probably some sort of caution. Certainly not eternal damnation.
If there was a person on death row and was to be put in the gas chamber for crimes committed. All appeals had be used up the judges have upheld sentence. The man is then scheduled for 6 AM the following day. The President of the US offers a pardon to the person and he refuses the pardon. At the appointed time the sentence is carried out.
Erm I thought we were discussing ignorance of the laws?
Is the prisoner ignorant of the pardon he has consciously chosen to reject? Quite obviously not.
A better anology would be if the pardon was made without telling the prisoner he had been potentially pardoned. Then killing him anyway because he did not formally accept the pardon he was completely unaware of.
This is the equivelenet of damning those who, for example, were raised Hindu.
By telling the prisoner of the pardon available you have proved my point for me. Ignorance is an unjustifiable reason for damnation of this sort.
Straggler I have spent 46 years of my life informing people of the consequences of disobedience to God. I have spent much of my income helping others. I have always pastored churches that could not afford to pay a minister. That made it necessary for me to work.
Had I applied myself to just making money as many do I would have more than I could waste in the rest of my life.
I have spent much time as a volunteer myself and certainly do not advocate material wealth as the ultimate aim of anything. I don't really understand your point here but I suspect you are making assumptions about me that are frankly unjustified.
So you talk about my unloving God all you want. You call Him a tyrant all you want. He paid your sin debt because He loved you. If you die and end up in the lake of fire it will be your fault I don't care who you want to blame.
Tough love huh? Very tough indeed apparently.
Paid for my sins? But what sins could I commit that your God has not already committed? Murder? Tick. Genocide? Tick. Jealousy? Tick. Etc.
As you know I am a complete non-believer. God, the devil etc. etc. are all a complete fantasy as far as I am concerned.
However as a non-believer I can see the appeal of a good forgiving Jesus style peace loving God. I can see why people might want to believe in this God and follow his teachings. Although I dispute the need for supernatural elements I can see that the world would be a better place if people were more inclined along these lines.
What completely baffles me is why anyone would ever want to worship the fire and brimstone God. The God who allows people to end up in a lake of fire. The God who will eternally condemn people to damnation for being raised in the wrong faith through no fault of their own. The God whose actions are comparable to the worst kind of despotic tyrant. The God that people like you seem to want to justify.
I just don't understand why you would worship this God or seek to justify his actions out of anything but fear.
And I don't think fear is a good reason to believe in anything and certainly not a thing to celebrate in any way.
Sorry I have no desire to be free from the restrictions of God.
If you think my lack of faith is grounded in my desire to be unrestriceted to do "bad" things without regard for the consequences, as you seem to be implying, then you are very much mistaken. Again you make unjustified assumptions.
The great surveillance camera in the sky is not a good reason to be good. Fear is not a good reason to be good. The desire to be good is the best reason to be good.
So you will have to make that journey without me.

Yes well I didn't expect you to take me up on my offer. If you had I would have been lost as to what this journey actually consists of or what the next step is. Application of reason and some analysis of why you believe what you do I suppose.
Anyway I have been playing devils advocate with you in the metaphorical sense at least. Unlike the bible I hope you have not taken this a little too literally

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 2:55 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 12:24 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 119 of 479 (470762)
06-12-2008 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Straggler
06-12-2008 8:45 AM


Re: Responsibility
Straggler writes:
If he did not want wickedness to exist he simply should not have created it. Obviously.
I agree.
But mankind would not have a choice.
The angels have no choice. They do exactly what they were created to do. Even the devil and his angels.
God makes no bones about it He created evil.
Isai 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Straggler writes:
If he does not want wickedness to exist he should simply banish it. Obviously.
I agree.
And He will in His time.
You keep thinking of God as Him being a man limited to time as we know it.
God views all of eternity as now. There is no past and no future only now. God sees the creation now. God also sees the end now. God also sees everything in-between now. You want to keep blaming God for man's decisions that God knew in advance. Problem to God it is all happening now to Him.
Straggler writes:
Why create a choice?
Good question. I wish I had the answer.
I can guess at the answer. I have my ideas of why.
The question comes to my mind, What can you give someone who has everything?
God has everything. The entire universe and maybe universes. He has angels that worship Him constantly, that would do anything He asked them to do.
There was one thing He did not have. That was somebody, or something that would worship Him, and obey Him because they/it chose to do so.
For that reason He created man in His image, and likeness.
He created man with a Spirit, Mind, and a Body. God did not program the human mind. He left that up to us, and depending on what we put in our minds determines what comes out. Like we say about the computer. Garbage in garbage out. Good info in good results.
Now I will try to let God answer the question through Paul.
Acts 17:24 (KJV) God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
I get from what Paul is saying that God wants man to choose to seek after Him and worship Him just because He is God.
That is the only thing in His creation He did not have until He created man with that capacity.
Straggler writes:
A better anology would be if the pardon was made without telling the prisoner he had been potentially pardoned. Then killing him anyway because he did not formally accept the pardon he was completely unaware of.
But the President offered the pardon. Now what if the people between the President and the condemned man did not deliver the offer of the pardon to him. WOULD THAT BE THE PRESIDENTS FAULT?
You see there are millions that have heard of the offer and accepted the pardon. Then there are millions that have heard and not accepted the offer of the pardon. (You being one of those) Then there are millions that their ancestors did not accept the offer and did not tell their decedents of the offer. Do not blame God for their choices.
Straggler writes:
I have spent much time as a volunteer myself and certainly do not advocate material wealth as the ultimate aim of anything. I don't really understand your point here but I suspect you are making assumptions about me that are frankly unjustified.
I was far from making any assumptions about anything. I was just pointing out for your information that all preachers are not like the ones you see on TV and hear about in the news. Most if not all belong to the devil.
Straggler writes:
Paid for my sins? But what sins could I commit that your God has not already committed? Murder? Tick. Genocide? Tick. Jealousy? Tick. Etc.
This is the biggest misconception concerning God and sin that there is.
Mankind has been deluded by the devil and organized religion into believing that his physical actions or inaction's has something to do with his relationship with God.
That is the furthest thing from the truth. All mankind was separated from God when the first man disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Up until that time God walked and talked with mankind just as you can talk to your children.
God made a way that relationship could be restored. It has nothing to do with your behavior.
It only has to do with your relationship with God. Your children are yours by birth. You could choose to adopt someone else's children and they would become yours by adoption.
God provided an adoption plan whereby you could be born again into His family and restore the relationship that mankind had with Him before the first man ate of the forbidden fruit.
He has given you and all mankind a choice.
Straggler writes:
The God whose actions are comparable to the worst kind of despotic tyrant. The God that people like you seem to want to justify.
I have no need or desire to justify God. That would put me in a position higher than God. I will let God speak to this.
Isai 55:8 (KJV) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Straggler writes:
The great surveillance camera in the sky is not a good reason to be good. Fear is not a good reason to be good. The desire to be good is the best reason to be good.
But you don't have to be good to go to heaven. You have to only be forgiven.
Straggler writes:
Anyway I have been playing devils advocate with you in the metaphorical sense at least. Unlike the bible I hope you have not taken this a little too literally
Straggler I came to EvC to learn, and I welcome the opportunity to learn. If I can learn something from you and others here that I can use in my daily quest of helping others then I have accomplished my goal.
I deal with people on a daily basis that are hurting, some financially, some from bad relationships, some from bad experiences, some who are drug addicts, some who are drunks, some who believe in God, some who do not believe in God. I truly believe if I am going to help them overcome their problems I need to understand them as well as their problems.
My aim is to be a better person today than I remember being yesterday. A memory is all that yesterday is.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 8:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 3:18 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 120 of 479 (470767)
06-12-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Legend
06-12-2008 3:25 AM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
err...was the first one a trick question ??!
It was not a trick question.
There are two kind of people in the world.
There are those who are of their father the devil.
John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Then there are Jesus sheep.
John 10:27 (KJV) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
I said God will interfere in the lives of His children.
You have the right and obligation to interfere in the lives of your children.
You do not have any right to interfer with your neighbors children.
God has no right to interfere in the lives of the children of the devil.
If He did interfere that would do away with freewill.
Legend writes:
ah yes, the good ol' Christian protection racket. God loves you so much that he's going to break your legs if you don't join his mob.
You are going to break your legs God just made a way you did not have to break them.
Legend writes:
what a despicable, petty and evil godlet you worship!
The God I worship says I am going to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels because of the choice the first man made.
Then He tells me He made a way I don't have to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.
My God tells me all I have to do is believe and trust in Him to escape that fate.
I think I like my God better than yours who tells you:
ICANT'S God does not exist. The lake of fire does not exist. It is just a myth. You believe him and in the end you share his fate in the lake of fire.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Legend, posted 06-12-2008 3:25 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Legend, posted 06-13-2008 9:38 PM ICANT has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024