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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 121 of 479 (470777)
06-12-2008 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
06-12-2008 12:24 PM


Re: Responsibility
He has given you and all mankind a choice.
Again - No he has not. Those who do not know there is a choice that they need to make, those who have no reason or basis to make that choice do not have the choice you speak of. Obviously!
You say God loves us? You say we are his children?
But the President offered the pardon. Now what if the people between the President and the condemned man did not deliver the offer of the pardon to him. WOULD THAT BE THE PRESIDENTS FAULT?
If it was the son of the president facing death at the allotted hour do you think the president would leave knowledge of his pardon to the vagaries and inefficiencies of beauracracy? Or would he make damn sure that his troubled son knew of the pardon and the choice that he needed to make to save himself?
An omnipotent God truly interested in the free choice of individual men, as you suggest, could and would take measures to ensure that each individual had equal opportunity to make the right choice. Condemning people whose only crime is ignorance to eternal damnation is unjust and would suggest an indifferent God. At best.
Choices require knowledge. Without knowledge there is no choice. Without choice there is no justice. Is your God an unjust God?
Would you unquestioningly accept the level of justice you are advocating from any other source than God? Or would you consider such a system unjust in every other scenario imaginable?
Then there are millions that have heard and not accepted the offer of the pardon. (You being one of those)
I have indeed had more opportunity than many others. It is those who have little or no opportunity to even consider the question that I speak of above.
However even those Godless wannabe knowitalls such as myself who are aware of the message you bring but who see no reason that is reasoned or viable to believe it - even we are not rejecting God out of malice. Whatwver you may believe to the opposite. I could not stay true to myself and have faith in your evidenceless asertions. If God gave man his rationality and ability to reason I would suggest that he should expect us to use rationality and reason and to not condemn the conclusions and choices that this results in.
Mankind has been deluded by the devil and organized religion into believing that his physical actions or inaction's has something to do with his relationship with God.
A serial child abuser and murderer would surely invoke the wrath of your God for his actions? No?
I have no need or desire to justify God. That would put me in a position higher than God. I will let God speak to this.
Where the actions of God would be undeniably considered as wicked if undertaken by any other being the only justification that is possible is that 'it is God and he can do what he wants without judgement'. This is no justification at all. It is a flawed cop-out of an argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 12:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 6:30 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 122 of 479 (470778)
06-12-2008 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by iano
06-11-2008 6:48 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Imagine that ability withdrawn from you and you can only sink into annoyance and hate for your son. God and his effect on you will have departed. All that remains is sin in you, an infection tending you towards self-importance and selfishness and the demand that your enjoyment, your priorities, your quiet evening watching the footie come first.
A quiet evening watching the foottie would seem like heaven at the moment
But seriously I do get what you mean. Unsurprsingly I don't accept that my love for others is as a result of God within them but, as usual on this general subject, you make your point eloquently, passionatley and well.
As I say, I'm pretty sure Heaven will be filled with people of all nations, pre-Christ and post-Christ, heard of Christ/didn't hear of Christ, heard of Christ per Islamic view / heard of Christ per Hindu view / etc.
Your barking up a tree of the wrong kind of detail. The issue is totally personal and is between you and God. No one gets to hide behind a religion.
If there is a God I hope this is true. If there is a God but this is not true then as far as I am concerned the God in question is unworthy of anyones companionship and is not a God I would want to have any dealings with. Whatever the consequences of that decision might be.
You should talk to ICANT. He seems to have a very different view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by iano, posted 06-11-2008 6:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 6:52 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 128 by iano, posted 06-13-2008 5:43 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 123 of 479 (470800)
06-12-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Straggler
06-12-2008 3:18 PM


Re: Responsibility
Straggler writes:
You say God loves us? You say we are his children?
Correction. Only those who are born again are His Children.
All others who have reached the point in life the first man and woman did when they ate the fruit and knew good and evil and have not been born again are the children of the devil.
Straggler writes:
Would you unquestioningly accept the level of justice you are advocating from any other source than God? Or would you consider such a system unjust in every other scenario imaginable?
During my 15 years in the Cayman Islands I saw two people who came to the Island and had a pistol in their luggage. They did not know it was against the law of the Cayman Island to be in possession of a firearm. They each spent 3 years in jail for their offense. So much for British justice right.
Straggler writes:
Whatwver you may believe to the opposite.
I have no reason to believe that people can not accept the idea of God. Some have some pretty good reasons in their mind and I have to respect that. I have friends that do not believe in God that are better people that a lot of people that will be in heaven.
Straggler the only difference between a saved person and a lost person is the saved person is forgiven because he has accepted the pardon offered. He is still a sinner just like the lost person.
Straggler writes:
A serial child abuser and murderer would surely invoke the wrath of your God for his actions? No?
Only if he does not repent and receive the pardon offered.
We have degrees of sin. God does not. You have either been born again or you are still a child of the devil as far as God is concerned. If you die a child of the devil you will inherit the same fate as your father the devil.
Straggler writes:
Where the actions of God would be undeniably considered as wicked if undertaken by any other being the only justification that is possible is that 'it is God and he can do what he wants without judgment'. This is no justification at all. It is a flawed cop-out of an argument.
I am a builder. I have built churches, houses, roads and bridges.
Now if I took my material and built a house and I decided to tear it down whose permission would I need. (Permits are not required for demolition where I live).
Why does God need our approval or permission to do anything He desires with what was originally His.
When we are doing experiments with a bunch of rats, chimps or whatever we don't ask their permission.
Why is God unjust if He decides to destroy His creation?
Why is God unjust if He offers you a pardon and you won't receive it?
Why is God unjust if He gave others the responsibility to tell everyone about the pardon and they don't.
Now for a bigger question that I have no answer for.
Has anyone ever died that had never been given the opportunity to receive the pardon offered by God?
I will leave the answer to that question in the hands of a just and righteous God and let Him determine their fate.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 3:18 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 7:08 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 465 by Aussie, posted 12-08-2017 1:04 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 124 of 479 (470803)
06-12-2008 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Straggler
06-12-2008 3:42 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
You should talk to ICANT. He seems to have a very different view.
You would be suprised at how close we believe the same thing. We just approach it from different angle's.
God is a merciful God. A loving God. He loved me enough to make a way for me to be reunited with Him. He made a way for me to hear His Word. He made a way His Holy Spirit could convict me that I needed to trust Him.
I just happened to be open to His offers. Which was my choice.
If God could provide all these for me, He can provide them for others.
He has provided iano, myself and others to tell you that you need to be born again.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 3:42 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 125 of 479 (470804)
06-12-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
06-12-2008 6:30 PM


Re: Responsibility
All others who have reached the point in life the first man and woman did when they ate the fruit and knew good and evil and have not been born again are the children of the devil.
What would happen to my 2 year old son should he (God forbid) die unexpectedly?
During my 15 years in the Cayman Islands I saw two people who came to the Island and had a pistol in their luggage. They did not know it was against the law of the Cayman Island to be in possession of a firearm. They each spent 3 years in jail for their offense. So much for British justice right.
3 years jail time vs an eternity in hell............
Do you really compare?
Is Gods justice based on Caymen island justice? Or should it be better?
I see you have avoided the main point of God allowing ignorance of the law needlessly and unjustly
Now if I took my material and built a house and I decided to tear it down whose permission would I need. (Permits are not required for demolition where I live).
Er maybe that of those that dwell in "your" building would at least be morally necessary even if not legally.
Why does God need our approval or permission to do anything He desires with what was originally His.
Can God kill, maim, rape, pillage, destroy etc purely on the basis of having ctreated? Should my son be subject to my whims in this way? Should I be allowed to torture and murder my "creation" in this way?
Why does God need our approval or permission to do anything He desires with what was originally His.
Because with free will comes moral judgement. Because creation in itself is not an excuse. Because if God is good his actions should also be good. Because if we are to follow God he should set an example worth following. Because if there is any sort of absolute morality (as I suspect you would advocate that there is) wrong is wrong regardless of who commits the act. Even God. Possession is no excuse.
When we are doing experiments with a bunch of rats, chimps or whatever we don't ask their permission.
In my view we should be much less flippant and much more questioning of the need for such things. Morally speaking.
Why is God unjust if He decides to destroy His creation?
Why is God unjust if He offers you a pardon and you won't receive it?
Why is God unjust if He gave others the responsibility to tell everyone about the pardon and they don't.
Apply these questions to a being other than God and see how consistent your answers are (or are not!!!!).
Apply these same questions to one who is ignorant of the very question that will decide his fate.
You have still failed to reconcile a loving God with a God who will condemn those ignorant of his choice to eternal damnation
Why? Because the two are obviously irreconciable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 6:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 9:34 PM Straggler has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 126 of 479 (470810)
06-12-2008 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by iano
06-11-2008 4:55 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Not at all moving the goalposts. Just describing where it is they are for you. You've been off singing from another hymn sheet, you see.
Your surrendering is something God manages to achieve through his efforts. Given that you are brought to your knees and rendered powerless to resist any longer by his outsmarting you, you shouldn't see his forgiveness as conditional upon you doing anything. He defeats you. Then forgives you.
how lovely, your god doesn't just 'forgive', he breaks you down first and then 'forgives' you. Like many torturers, he has to break his victims' will before he can extract a confession.
well, I suppose you've now admitted it and given up all this nonsense about god's being 'forgiving'.
what a nice god you believe in!
And if he doesn't manage to defeat you? Well, you can pat yourself on the back for a job well done. You win and get what you held out to the bitter end for. An eternal existance without God.
given that you describe your god as a petty, self-centred sadist, an eternal existence without him is by far the best option!
Parents will love there heroin addict son but they cannot, for the good of the rest of the household, permit him to live in the family home. The forgiveness for money stolen and hearts broken awaits. But cannot be delivered until the son repents.
Listen, for the last time: Forgiveness is given freely and without terms & conditions. That's pretty much the definition of forgiveness. That's what forgiveness IS! Your god is unable/unwilling to do that.
What you're describing is not forgiveness, just tolerance of sin (provided the right price is paid). That's what your god does: he turns a blind eye to sin if only you believe that his son died for you. (although he didn't quite really die, did he?)

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by iano, posted 06-11-2008 4:55 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2008 5:09 PM Legend has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 127 of 479 (470825)
06-12-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Straggler
06-12-2008 7:08 PM


Re: Responsibility
Straggler writes:
What would happen to my 2 year old son should he (God forbid) die unexpectedly?
He and I could have a conversation one day about why you did not make it to heaven. If you never accept the pardon offered to you by God.
Straggler writes:
Er maybe that of those that dwell in "your" building would at least be morally necessary even if not legally.
Why would I need their permission?
Straggler writes:
Should I be allowed to torture and murder my "creation" in this way?
It is done at least 88 times a minute by the medical profession.
Straggler writes:
Because with free will comes moral judgement. Because creation in itself is not an excuse. Because if God is good his actions should also be good. Because if we are to follow God he should set an example worth following. Because if there is any sort of absolute morality (as I suspect you would advocate that there is) wrong is wrong regardless of who commits the act. Even God. Possession is no excuse.
You put forth some good argument. But you did not answer the question. Why does God need our approval or permission to do anything He desires with what was originally His?
I am not talking about why He does or does not do anything. I am just asking why would He need our permission?
Straggler writes:
You have still failed to reconcile a loving God with a God who will condemn those ignorant of his choice to eternal damnation
You just don't get it do you?
God created the first man.
God gave him one rule.
You eat, you die.
The day the man ate he was separated from God.
You are a decendent of that man.
Therefore you are separated from God.
Everyone who is separated from God is ALREADY condemned not by God but by the first man.
God made a way you can overcome what your ancestor did.
The choice is yours. He did get around to point it out to you.
Maybe He will make it so all the others have an opportunity.
I will say this you do not deserve another opportunity until they have had one.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 7:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Straggler, posted 06-14-2008 11:22 AM ICANT has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 128 of 479 (470977)
06-13-2008 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Straggler
06-12-2008 3:42 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
Unsurprisingly I don't accept that my love for others is as a result of God within them
Unsurprisingly, I accept your lack of acceptance.
Salvation doesn't approach full frontally. Looking back afterwards you'd see that you began (assuming you ever begin) to notice an unbearable clash between that which you find yourself loving doing (if not managing to do it as frequently as you would love to) and that which you find yourself hating yourself for doing (if not managing to do it as infrequently as you would love to)
-
As I say, I'm pretty sure Heaven will be filled with people of all nations, pre-Christ and post-Christ, heard of Christ/didn't hear of Christ, heard of Christ per Islamic view / heard of Christ per Hindu view / etc.
If there is a God I hope this is true. If there is a God but this is not true then as far as I am concerned the God in question is unworthy of anyones companionship and is not a God I would want to have any dealings with. Whatever the consequences of that decision might be.
Although brought up about as far from Religion as one could hope to be brought up, the above sentiment was formulated thus to the JW/Mormons that called to my door. "What about the people who could never hear your 'truth'?" It was the swiftest way a combative young iano could conquer.
These days I invite them in
I don't know about other gods but God of the Bible doesn't seem to be hiding the fact he can save all men under a bushel.
-
You should talk to ICANT. He seems to have a very different view.
Hey, ICANT. What about all the people who lived before Christ. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel .. Abraham, etc.
Can they not have been saved because they didn't/couldn't "accept Christ as Lord and Saviour"?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 3:42 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 129 of 479 (471000)
06-13-2008 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
06-12-2008 1:05 PM


Re: Interference
ICANT writes:
I said God will interfere in the lives of His children.
You have the right and obligation to interfere in the lives of your children.
You do not have any right to interfer with your neighbors children.
God has no right to interfere in the lives of the children of the devil.
Tell me, if you see your neighbour leading his children towards a cliff, intending to push them off, wouldn't you try to stop him? or at least notify the authorities? Or would you just say that 'I have no right to interfere in the lives of the children of my neighbour'?
Taking this a step further, if you're the almighty creator of everything and you see one of your creations attempting to destroy some other creations of yours (who you supposedly love very much) what would you do ?
well, you're telling us that your God just doesn't want to interfere!
So either he's not as powerful as the devil so he can't stop him, or he just doesn't care about mankind that much.
What you're preaching here presents your god as incompetent or uncaring, or both.
ICANT writes:
If He did interfere that would do away with freewill.
What?! so you're effectively saying that you wouldn't try to stop children jumping off a cliff because that would do away with their freewill ?!
You sound almost as callous as your god!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 1:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 06-13-2008 10:22 PM Legend has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 130 of 479 (471002)
06-13-2008 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Legend
06-13-2008 9:38 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
Tell me, if you see your neighbour leading his children towards a cliff, intending to push them off, wouldn't you try to stop him? or at least notify the authorities? Or would you just say that 'I have no right to interfere in the lives of the children of my neighbour'?
Sure I would interfere. But that does not mean I got a right too.
Legend writes:
Taking this a step further, if you're the almighty creator of everything and you see one of your creations attempting to destroy some other creations of yours (who you supposedly love very much) what would you do ? well, you're telling us that your God just doesn't want to interfere!
Whether He want to or not does not make any difference.
He has given that job to His Church which I happen to be a part of. That is why I am here trying to interfere in your eternal destiny.
Legend writes:
So either he's not as powerful as the devil so he can't stop him, or he just doesn't care about mankind that much.
God will take the devil and cast him into the lake of fire one day and he will never be able to leave his final abode. Neither will any that choose to go with him.
Legend writes:
What you're preaching here presents your god as incompetent or uncaring, or both.
Well if Him paying your debt and offering you a free pardon makes Him incompetent and uncaring I guess He is in your mind.
Legend writes:
What?! so you're effectively saying that you wouldn't try to stop children jumping off a cliff because that would do away with their freewill ?!
I am trying my best to keep you from jumping off that cliff.
Legend writes:
You sound almost as callous as your god!
Why? Is it because I tell you like it is. Jesus died for your sin so you could be reunited with God and not have to spend eternity with the devil in the lake of fire, and all you have to do is accept the pardon offered to you by God.
Its your choice.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Legend, posted 06-13-2008 9:38 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Legend, posted 06-14-2008 4:54 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 131 of 479 (471086)
06-14-2008 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by ICANT
06-12-2008 9:34 PM


Re: Responsibility
I am not talking about why He does or does not do anything. I am just asking why would He need our permission?
Need? I have not claimed that an omnipotent omniscient God would need anything.
If anyone has claimed God has needs it is you. Apparently he needs and and wants man to choose to love him for some inexplicable reason
My argument relates to what a good and just god should do if he is indeed good and just as you claim. Not what he needs to do.
Condemning people for ignorance to the same fate as those who consciously did wrong is not good and is not just
You put forth some good argument. But you did not answer the question. Why does God need our approval or permission to do anything He desires with what was originally His?
Forget need. Think of should. So I say again -
Straggler writes
Because with free will comes moral judgement. Because creation in itself is not an excuse. Because if God is good his actions should also be good. Because if we are to follow God he should set an example worth following. Because if there is any sort of absolute morality (as I suspect you would advocate that there is) wrong is wrong regardless of who commits the act. Even God. Possession is no excuse.
ICANT Writes
God created the first man.
God gave him one rule.
You eat, you die.
The day the man ate he was separated from God.
You are a decendent of that man.
Therefore you are separated from God.
Everyone who is separated from God is ALREADY condemned not by God but by the first man.
God made a way you can overcome what your ancestor did.
The choice is yours. He did get around to point it out to you.
Maybe He will make it so all the others have an opportunity.
So in summary -
God is omnipotent and omniscient
God chose a method of spreading his message of redemption that has left huge swathes of the world’s population unaware of the choice that they are required to make.
This however is not Gods fault.
Regardless of fault those unlucky enough to be unaware of the choice they need to make will burn in eternal damnation.
God loves us.
You just don't get it do you?
No!!! Even if I believed that your God existed I would never be able to worhip one so heartless and indifferent to human pain and suffering. Whatever the consequences to myself.
I will say this you do not deserve another opportunity until they have had one.
See above. I don't want such an opportunity with your God.
You just don't get it do you?
You seem like a good, decent and well meaning person. As such I am utterly unable to understand how you can believe and worship a god with whom you have to justify utter indifference to eternal suffering with a simple shrug of the shoulders and the argument "Why does God need our approval or permission to do anything He desires with what was originally His?"
A good and just God would not need to be explained or justified with such arguments.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 06-12-2008 9:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 06-14-2008 5:16 PM Straggler has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


(1)
Message 132 of 479 (471122)
06-14-2008 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
06-13-2008 10:22 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
Tell me, if you see your neighbour leading his children towards a cliff, intending to push them off, wouldn't you try to stop him? or at least notify the authorities? Or would you just say that 'I have no right to interfere in the lives of the children of my neighbour'?
ICANT writes:
Sure I would interfere. But that does not mean I got a right too.
so you would interfere to save someone from danger even you might not know them or have any responsibility towards them.
but your god will not interfere to save his own creation who he supposedly loves! what a father he is!
ICANT writes:
He has given that job to His Church which I happen to be a part of.
so the almighty, all-powerful creator of everything has delegated the job of saving his own children to the weak and faltering humankind, even when he knows that the 'eternal destiny' of some of his creation will be lost as a result ?!
wow, your god then can't really care about his children that much. I mean, he assigned an incompetent subordinate to this task, he can't be really bothered then, maybe he has more important things to attend or something.
what a lazy, uncaring god you worship!
Legend writes:
So either he's not as powerful as the devil so he can't stop him, or he just doesn't care about mankind that much.
ICANT writes:
God will take the devil and cast him into the lake of fire one day and he will never be able to leave his final abode. Neither will any that choose to go with him.
so your answer is then B) : god just doesn't care about mankind that much. At least you're honest about it.
ICANT writes:
I am trying my best to keep you from jumping off that cliff.
but isn't that god's job? Oh, that's right, I forget: god couldn't be bothered and has delegated this task to his underlings.
how can you seriously expect people to start worshiping such a callous, indifferent god ?!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 06-13-2008 10:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 06-14-2008 5:38 PM Legend has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 133 of 479 (471123)
06-14-2008 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Straggler
06-14-2008 11:22 AM


Re: Responsibility
Straggler writes:
A good and just God would not need to be explained or justified with such arguments.
When we talk about God being good, just what are we talking about?
According to Good Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Definition of Good=
1 a (1): of a favorable character or tendency
God paid your debt whether you accept it or not.
God offered you a full pardon.
God not only offered that pardon to you but to everyone who will accept it.
You use the word just and I have no idea how you want to apply that to God. There is only one definition I can find for one adjective form of just that would fit and that is "legally correct".
God is a God of Justice.
Justice Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Justice=
1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b: judge c: the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a: the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1): the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2): conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c: the quality of conforming to law
3: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness
For God to be a God of justice He can not show partiality.
Lets examine God's position.
God made a law only one law that determined man's relationship with God.
Man was given the consequences of breaking that law.
Man broke that law.
God imposed the sentence for the crime and separated Himself from man.
God in His goodness did not think it fair that all mankind be doomed to the devils fate because of the disobedience of one man.
Therefore God made a way man could receive a reprieve from the penalty of that sin.
God offered mankind a free full pardon and paid for it Himself.
God set up a method for the news of that pardon to be spread to the world.
It has been spread and is being spread.
As I have said I lived in the Cayman Islands for 15 years and came in contact with people from all over the world. I met people from England, Scotland, Ireland, the Caribbean countries, the south American countries Canada and the US. Out of all the hundreds of thousands of people I have met NONE of them had never heard of God.
Many of them did not believe in God, but they had heard of Him.
Now my question to you is, how can God be a God of justice if He waves the rule for ONE person?
The law was broken, and mankind was separated from God.
God made a way man could be reunited to God.
The rule has always been the same it was just approached differently in the OT days than it is in the NT times.
Man must believe God and receive the pardon offered.
If God lifts that requirement for one person He ceases to be a God of Justice.
If God forgives anyone's sins it will be because they have accepted God's pardon on His terms.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Straggler, posted 06-14-2008 11:22 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Straggler, posted 06-15-2008 6:25 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 134 of 479 (471128)
06-14-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Legend
06-14-2008 4:54 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
delegated the job of saving his own children to the weak and faltering humankind,
Correction His children are already saved. They have been born into His family.
God does the saving.
Legend writes:
wow, your god then can't really care about his children that much.
God supplies everything His children needs.
Legend writes:
what a lazy, uncaring god you worship!
So God is lazy if He doesn't come down to your house beat you over the head hold you up over the sun and let you get a taste of the lake of fire and make you accept His offer of the full free pardon.
Don't hold your breath for that to happen.
Legend writes:
so your answer is then B) : god just doesn't care about mankind that much. At least you're honest about it.
What are you griping about God made a way for mankind to receive a full free pardon that He paid for Himself and does not require man to do anything but accept it.
He did not have to do that. Man had his chance.
Why should God give him another? But He did.
Legend writes:
how can you seriously expect people to start worshiping such a callous, indifferent god ?!
I Don't.
But then everybody is not looking through your eyes and mindset.
Many still see God as the one providing a way for them to be reunited with Him for eternity. Especially since He made it so easy.
He could have given us hundreds even thousands laws and said if you break one of them you won't make it.
He gave one "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Legend, posted 06-14-2008 4:54 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Legend, posted 06-15-2008 6:56 AM ICANT has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 135 of 479 (471156)
06-15-2008 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ICANT
06-14-2008 5:38 PM


Re: Interference
ICANT writes:
Correction His children are already saved. They have been born into His family.
God does the saving.
Hold on, im Message 130 you said that God has delegated this job to his church! Are you changing your mind now?!
Also if his children are born saved there's no need to accept Jesus, as they're already saved.
so, just for the record, which doctrine are you subscribing to? are we born saved or not? does Jesus or God do the saving? Is God doing it himself or has he delegated to his church?
It seems to me you're very confused about what you believe in!
ICANT writes:
So God is lazy if He doesn't come down to your house beat you over the head hold you up over the sun and let you get a taste of the lake of fire and make you accept His offer of the full free pardon.
No, god is lazy because he can't be bothered to do anything to save his creation from the mess he condemned them in. Your last few posts clearly imply that.
ICANT writes:
so your answer is then B) : god just doesn't care about mankind that much. At least you're honest about it.
ICANT writes:
What are you griping about God made a way for mankind to receive a full free pardon that He paid for Himself and does not require man to do anything but accept it.
Previously, I've asked:
quote:
So either he's not as powerful as the devil so he can't stop him, or he just doesn't care about mankind that much.
You replied:
quote:
God will take the devil and cast him into the lake of fire one day and he will never be able to leave his final abode. Neither will any that choose to go with him.
So you're saying that God is more powerful than the devil. Then, the answer to "why is God watching his creation being led to destruction and does nothing about it" can only be that he doesn't care about them that much. You can't have it both ways. Either God wants to help but he can't, or he can but he won't.
I won't even go into the absurdity of God paying himself (what did he pay?) to forgive us (for something that we didn't do) and stop himself from having us sent to hell (which he created). See my previous posts to iano for more details on how messed up this is.
ICANT writes:
He could have given us hundreds even thousands laws and said if you break one of them you won't make it.He gave one "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
errr........NO HE DIDN'T! When Jesus was asked what is the one thing that man needs to do in order to be saved he replied that all you need is to love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself (Luke 10:25-37). These are the two great commandments.
Don't you read your bible?! Jesus never said "believe in me and you will be saved".
And I thought you were a Christian! Or is it you just don't believe what Jesus said?

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 06-14-2008 5:38 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2008 10:38 PM Legend has replied

  
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