Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 365 (470880)
06-13-2008 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by starman
06-12-2008 12:47 AM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
Hi Starman. A hearty welcome to EvC. I agree that this is one of the most significant prophecies concerning the advent of messiah Jesus and just one of the wonderfully fulfilled Biblical prophecies.
So far, you're doing great. Please don't get discouraged and hang in here. We've got the truth on our side.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by starman, posted 06-12-2008 12:47 AM starman has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 365 (470998)
06-13-2008 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
06-13-2008 7:58 AM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
PaulK writes:
I know that the 4th Empire is Greek because Daniel describes the Greek empire in a way that matches the 4th Empire. Nowhere does he describe the Roman Empire. More importantly the End Time vision of Daniel 8 (8:17, 8:19) is clearly about a Greek ruler (8:21-22)
Forth relative to what? To get an accurate understanding of the prophecies of Daniel you need to combine the info from the various accounts, beginning with the image of Daniel 2, the first kingdom being Babylon. The only named one is Babylon here. You count 3 world empires (abe: beginning with) Babylon and you come to the Greek as the 3rd (age: empire).
Go to Daniel 5 where Daniel prophesies to Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzars son. Again the kingdoms not named but coincide with the image beast as you count down (abe: beginning with Babylon.)
Then you go to Daniel 8 where in Belshazzar's 3rd year of rule, Daniel is given more info from God and he actually names the Medo-Persian empire and the Greek empires. Note in Daniel 5:28, Daniel has already told Belshazzar that the Mede Persian empire would follow the Babylonian Empire.
So now we have three empires named beginning with Babylon and the Greek being the third. Thus Rome becomes the un-named fourth empire
(abe: beginning with) the Babylonian
Edited by Buzsaw, : clarification
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2008 7:58 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 06-14-2008 4:30 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 365 (471109)
06-14-2008 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by PaulK
06-14-2008 5:34 AM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
PaulK writes:
Since Daniel does not include "ten kingdoms" and there aren't "ten Rome empire related leftovers"
As I said, in order to get the whole picture right one must apply the info given in the entire sequence of visions.
Go to Daniel 7:24 where you find that the 10 horns of the 4th beast, i.e the same beast (empire) which is destroyed by the little stone of Dan 2 are 10 kings within that 4th empire.
These 10 kings are clearly future to emerge in the end times (modern times) three of which shall be conquered by the little notable horn, i.e. likely the antichrist entity.
This is also the same 10 kings of Revelation 13, 17 and 18 which rules the latter day world and which destroys Mystery Babylon (imo, Vatican City).

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 06-14-2008 5:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by starman, posted 06-15-2008 4:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2008 11:27 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 365 (471299)
06-15-2008 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by PaulK
06-15-2008 11:27 AM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
PaulK writes:
That's exactly what I do. And Daniel 8 shows that the last Empire is Greek.
Paul, which kingdom empire in the Daniel prophecies is the third Empire?. Name it.
How does the sequence of Daniel's Empires go beginning with Babylon? Name them.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix quote

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2008 11:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2008 1:53 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 365 (471385)
06-16-2008 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
06-16-2008 1:53 AM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
PaulK writes:
I believe it to be:
Babylon
Media
Persia
Greece
The other possibility I have seen suggested is:
Babylon
Media-Persia
Macedonia
Successor States
As I point out the context provided by the other prophecies clearly identifies the 4th Empire as Greek. That is the only Empire mentioned in the text as being divided.
See Daniel 5:28. Daniel to King Belshazzar of Babylon: "....thy kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and the Persians."
I remember in high school way back in the 1940s it was common knowledge that the Medo-Persian world class empire was one shared empire.
Macedonia? Alexander the Great saved Macedonia from falling. After Alexander's death, Macedonia survived for a spell, but never as a world class dominating empire. Rome continued to prevail to become the 4th world class empire after the Greek (which included Macedonia).
Paul, your argument would obviously be considered bogus to any Daniel scholar who can read. Daniel's 3rd kingdom is clearly the Greek empire and the only world class empire to follow was the Roman so Daniel's un-named 4th empire has to be Rome, not Greece.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2008 1:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2008 2:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 365 (471437)
06-16-2008 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by PaulK
06-16-2008 2:10 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
PaulK writes:
The Macedonian empire referred to IS Alexander's Empire. You might think that he only "saved Macedonia from falling", but even the author of the Book of Daniel knew that Alexander created a great Empire, that was broken up on his death.
Historians have always considered Alexander's empire to be the Greek empire. Macedonia was an entity of the Greek empire.
Paul, this is your MO, to accuse your counterparts of failing to respond. No matter what I say, you've always resorted to that bogus claim when you can't deliver. You do not debate in good faith.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2008 2:10 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by IamJoseph, posted 06-17-2008 1:25 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2008 1:29 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 365 (471906)
06-19-2008 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by PaulK
06-17-2008 1:29 AM


Alexander's Greek Empire
PaulK writes:
That isn't true. ALexander was King of Macedonia. That was his power base. Alexander's Empire has always been considered Macedonian for that obvious reason
Here are the facts regarding Alexander's Greek World Class Empire Paulk. Your argument is a whistle in the wind and contrary to world history. There was no world class empire known as the Macedonian Empire. The Greek Empire was the prophet Daniel's foreseen third empire.
I see the link is down so you can Google "Crash Course in Jewish History #27 - The Greek Empire" and bring it up.
The classical Greek period begins as early as 7th century BCE, though we tend to be more familiar with its history in the 5th century when Greece consists of a group of constantly warring city-states, the most famous being Athens and Sparta. The Greek victory at the Marathon (490 BCE),(1) the destruction of the Persian fleet at Salamis (480 BCE) and the victory at Plataea (479 BCE) brought and end to the Persian Empire's attempts to conquer Greece. During the last three decades of the 5th century, Athens and Sparta waged a devastating war (Peloponnesian War 431-404 BCE) which culminated in the surrender of Athens. More inter-Greek fighting followed in the 4th century but later in that century all of Greece would succumb to Phillip II of Macedon, who paves way for his son, Alexander the Great, to spread the Greek civilization across the world.
Alexander, born in 356BCE, was the son of Phillip II (382-336BCE), the King of Macedonia in northern Greece.
Only the weariness of his men and his untimely death in 323BCE at the age of 32 ended the Greek conquest of the known world.
He built six Greek cities in his empire, named Alexandria. (Today the best known is the city of Alexandria in Egypt at the Nile delta.) These cities and the Greeks who settle in them brought Greek culture to the center of the oldest civilizations of Mesopotamia
Edited by Buzsaw, : Link fix

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2008 1:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2008 1:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 06-19-2008 10:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 365 (472010)
06-19-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
06-19-2008 12:13 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
Paul, you fail to refute my link that Alexander, the Macedonian's empire was the Greek Empire and when the History books call his empire Greek they are correct. You can call it Macedonian, but the vast majority of historians consider it to be the Greek Empire and that the alleged Macedonian empire was not a world class empire. Alexander did not conquer the civilized world until his empire included all of Greece. It was the Greek empire which was Daniel's 3rd empire which was divided into four segments after his death.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 06-19-2008 12:13 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 1:36 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 365 (472085)
06-20-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
06-20-2008 1:36 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
PaulK writes:
Which is irrelevant since the Macedonian Empire is ALL of Alexander's Empire.
But Alexander's empire did not become world class until he conquered the whole world. Macedonia was considered part of Greece, had Greek dialect language, Greek gods and Greek culture. It was totally Helenistic in the ancient times of Daniel.
PaulK writes:
The 3rd Empire of the statue isn't divided. The 4th Empire is. That is one of the lines of evidence identifying the 4th Empire as the Greek Empire.
This is why one must apply all the info from all of the visions of Daniel to understand the prophecy of Daniel and the empires. Go to Daniel 7 where the same empires of Daniels image are depicted as beasts. The third beast is a leopard which had on it's back four wings and it had four heads. This is the only mention of one empire having the factor of four in all of his visions. The fourth beast has the factor of ten which is 10 kings, being the ten toes of the first vistion and the 10 horns of the last. The 4th empire of Daniel has the division of 10 whereas the 3rd has the division of 4.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 1:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 2:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 365 (472096)
06-20-2008 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
06-20-2008 1:36 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
here are some facts relative to the Greek/Macedonian argument as to whether Daniel's third empire of Alexander the Great was an alleged Macedonian empire.
My apologies for the length of the quoted segment, but when one debates with Paul, one must post every jot and tittle.
1. The New York Times advertisement of 4/26/92 says, "4000 years of Greek History, 4000 years of Greek Culture, 4000 years of Greek Heritage... Skopje's government seeking recognition as the 'Republic of Macedonia' perpetuates a fraud." Pamphlets distributed in churches stated, "Macedonia has been Greek for 3,000 years. In ancient times Macedonians spoke Greek, worshipped Greek gods, expressed their creativity through Greek art and maintained a refined Greek culture ... all archaeological discoveries continue to unearth more information attesting to the indisputable Greekness of Macedonia."
2. "Out of the blue, in 1944, the Yugoslav communist leader, Tito, wishing to weaken Serbia on the one hand, and set the footing for future territorial claims against Greece on the other, schemingly gave South Serbia the Greek name 'Macedonia' and re-wrote the 'history' books to declare that ancient Macedonia was Slavic and that these people were descendants of Alexander the Great."
3. "The existence of a 'Slav' Macedonia could never be, and indeed, has never been supported either by historical data, or by ethnographic maps, or by statistics, or by some census, or by archaeological finds, or by even an obscure mention of such a nation from antiquity till today."
4. "Macedonia has been the name of Northern Greece for more than 3000 years. The Greek region ... has one of the most homogeneous populations in the world (98.5% Greek). Its population speaks Greek, feels Greek, is Greek."
5. "An independent 'Macedonia' would monopolize the name at the expense of the real Macedonians who are twice the number of the Slavs. The use and abuse of the name would cause widespread confusion as is already apparent."
6. "Macedonia is an indispensable part of Greece's historical heritage it cannot identify, in an ethnic sense another nation."
7. "The Skopje 'language' is undeniably Slavic."
8. "The Slavs did not set foot in the Balkans until 1000 years after Alexander the Great."
9. "The name 'Macedonia (which is etymologically Greek) was in use at least 1500 years before the arrival of the first Slavs."
10. "Every known Macedonian town, river and person had a Greek name - Philip (lover of horse), Alexander (protector of men), Archelaus (leader of people), Amyntas (defender), Ptolemy (warlike), Bucephalus (ox-head)."
11. "The Old Testament (Daniel Ch. 8) and the New Testament (Acts Ch. 17) confirm the Greekness of Alexander and the Macedonians."
12. "It was the Greek language that was taken to Asia (Bible written in Greek) and cities with Greek names and institutions that were founded."
13. "There are 60,000 archaeological finds that confirm that the Macedonians were Greek in language, culture and religion."
14. "The home of the Greek gods was in Macedonia. Is it feasible that a people would worship its national gods in a foreign country?"
15. " Yugoslav Macedonia is not even geographically in the territory occupied by ancient Macedonia."
16. "Independent sources in this century (Turkish Census of 1904 when the region was part of the Ottoman Empire, League of Nations Census of 1926 and declassified British Archives 1934) make no mention of any ethnic Macedonians whatsoever until the Communists came along with their preposterous concoction to dominate the Balkans."
17. "By appropriating and maintaining the name 'Macedonia' the Slavs are laying the foundations for future territorial claims against the region of the same name in Greece. They have clearly expressed this intention by:- (a) plagiarizing and blatantly falsifying history (b)... continuously using maps and emblems that include northern Greece as part of 'Macedonia~ and (c) refusing to comply with the directive of the European Community in its declaration of 16th December 1991 to (i) cease hostile propaganda; (ii) commit itself to guarantees that it has no territorial claims and (iii) not use a denomination (Macedonia) which implies expansionist intentions."

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 1:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 2:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 365 (472174)
06-20-2008 9:42 PM


Biblifobic Futility
Srarman, now you see why over the years I've engaged in few prophecy debates with folks who will never admit to one regardless of the evidence.
They don't even see any significance to the phenomena of the regathered Jews from numerous distant nations and the establishment of their nation after 19 centuries, Hebrew language and all, having never integrated into the races of those nations. If they can't find prophecy fulfillment in that, how can we expect anything positive from them on anything else?
I'm reminded of the Pharasees who faulted Jesus and Lazurus because it was done on the Jewish Sabbath rather than to lend credence to the miracle.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by IamJoseph, posted 06-20-2008 10:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 138 by starman, posted 06-21-2008 11:39 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2008 12:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 365 (472198)
06-20-2008 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by IamJoseph
06-20-2008 10:48 PM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
The Macedonian/Greek debate is raging over there as we speak. I doubt we will solve that here, but anyone who understands the prophecies of Daniel relative to world history and relative to modern events knows that the third empire of Daniel's prophecies was the Greek empire and that Macedonia was then considered in Greece.
The Slavs in Macedonia, i.e. the minority of the citizens of Macedonia want to make it a separate nation and have concocted a separate flag for Northern Greece, i.e Macedonia.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by IamJoseph, posted 06-20-2008 10:48 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by anglagard, posted 06-20-2008 11:17 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 136 by IamJoseph, posted 06-21-2008 1:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 365 (472204)
06-20-2008 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
06-20-2008 2:35 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
PaulK writes:
The Book of Isaiah says so (Isaiah 45:1). Do you claim to know better than the Bible ?
It seems that Darius considered Jehovah to be at least the principle god. Remember Daniel and the lion's den? Darius was hardly a Biblical fundie. He was willing to aquise to the notion of exalting himself above all gods, including Jehovah, for a spell which resulted in Daniel's predicament.
In Isaiah 45:11 it appears that he was anointed for the purpose of Jehovah for the occasion. He stood up for God's nation, Israel. Hopefully he will end up ok in the judgement after all is said and done. God alone will be his final judge.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 2:35 PM PaulK has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 365 (472207)
06-20-2008 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by anglagard
06-20-2008 11:17 PM


Re: Macedonia Today
Sorry Buz, Macedonia is a separate nation with a separate flag since declaring independence in 1991. Where have you been?
I've been here and there on the www.
ABE: Be mindful that the thread is relative to ancient time and not 1991.
Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by anglagard, posted 06-20-2008 11:17 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by anglagard, posted 06-21-2008 12:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 365 (472484)
06-22-2008 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by PaulK
06-22-2008 3:34 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
PaulK writes:
That's not my problem. It matters not to me whether there is a difference or not. Isaiah 45:1 declares that Cyrus is a messiah. Do you agree with Isaiah 45:1 or not ? Make your mind up.
1. Your problem is that this text does not say Cyrus was the messiah. The word is anoint. He was consecrated/anointed by God for a purpose which was to advance his purpose as king for God's program.
2. When you corroborate all of the prophetic messianic texts regarding God's messiah who is to be messianic king of the Jews as was posted over his cross, you find that he will be Jewish and that he will be a descendant of David's throne. His kingdom will be in Israel. Cyrus in no way fits that. In Daniel 2 this is the little stone which pulverizes all of the kingdoms of the world and which becomes the ruling entity of the whole planet. If you can't grasp that, it is hopeless to think you can understand Daniel at all. That is not to say that you need to believe that. It's what Daniel and all the prophets prophesy for our times, i.e. the end times as Daniel puts it.
3. Definition, Merriam Webster; anoint:
1: to smear or rub with oil or an oily substance
2 a: to apply oil to as a sacred rite especially for consecration b: to choose by or as if by divine election; also : to designate as if by a ritual anointment

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by PaulK, posted 06-22-2008 3:34 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by starman, posted 06-22-2008 8:21 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 165 by ramoss, posted 06-22-2008 11:05 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 170 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2008 1:28 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024