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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 38 of 113 (474385)
07-08-2008 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


i would not make any deal with such a unjust deity ..
anyone who is one of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth is clearly a good person in the real meaning of the word ... i would aline myself with them , if they would have me ...
not the maker of silly rules ...
if ten of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth considered and rejected the message .. then it is a failing of the message not the people ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 5:17 AM ikabod has replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 40 of 113 (474392)
07-08-2008 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by iano
07-08-2008 5:17 AM


Or Cavedivers estimation of what constitutes selflessness amd morality differs somewhat from Gods idea of same. If these people are in fact, lovers of evil and insist in their refusal to love the truth - then the message they shall not get. For the message itself is truth.
and here is the issue .. either we have a agreed measure of what constitutes selflessness amd morality , i am avoiding the "absolute" word here .. or we can never know if what we are doing is "right" .. either we can be our own critic .. or its just a mean game with hidden rules .....
Now i very carefully stated the Ten had considered the message .. they looked and found the message wanting ..and yet they still followed the path of good deads .. clearly without any hope of reward ... where as if the HAD accepted the message then they would have foreseen a expectation of a reward .. thus lowering the degree of their selflessness .. so have they not done the greater more noble thing of doing what is right for no gain .. compared to a belive of the message .
are you saying its better to accept the message and be only a little selfless .. than to be supremely selfless and reject the message ?
****Sorry i think we may be getting off topic if so please ignore ******
Edited by ikabod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 5:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 6:42 AM ikabod has replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 43 of 113 (474404)
07-08-2008 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
07-08-2008 6:42 AM


ok we must agree to differ ..
to me any act that needs the promting of someone else is no a truly selfless act .... such "goodness" comes without thought , reasoning , hints , directions , instructions and without the clause
...for this act to have value you must agree to the rule that you are nothing without me above you ....
if you have to refer to a book to act in a "correct" way then you are defering to anothers values ...instead of coming to the right values yourself ...
Unbelievers attribute their own righteous acts to themselves.
not the selfless ones .... they attribute their righteous acts to the Need that those act are done ..... and for no other reason ..
At the risk of going way off topic ... what about all the people born before the message was given .. by your rules none of them could have avoided hell ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 6:42 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 12:32 PM ikabod has not replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 49 of 113 (474515)
07-09-2008 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
07-08-2008 2:56 PM


Iano it think you are getting very close to stating a case for the non-exsistance of good and evil .
to review you say ..
The self being a product of it's environment, a complicated machine, the righteousness is self-righteousness. Or product-of-it's-environment-righteousness if you prefer.
there removing the selfs abiltiy to choose its path .. if it is constrained by it enviroment it becomes blamless for its acts ...good or bad ...
If one has to follow the message and its rules then one passes the justification for any law , or action driven by that law , into the hands of the giver of the message ... good becomes following someone elses path , because they tell you that is the correct way ...and to be a belive requires you not to question ...
Thus any good or evil you perform is controlled by another .
I personally think we have the ability to reason ... to look at something and to determine good and bad .. we can then choose how to act ..within our limited abilities ...and to accept the blame when we get it wrong ..no get outs ..i come from a nasty enviromenyt .. of i did belive the correct way .... it is that old idea that free will is not really free if someone stands in the wings holding up the correct answer for you...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 07-08-2008 2:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by iano, posted 07-09-2008 6:40 AM ikabod has not replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 53 of 113 (474538)
07-09-2008 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
07-09-2008 7:15 AM


I know what stealing is and I know it's wrong. And I wouldn't be able to reinterpret Gods word on the matter to suit my own book - even when I steal.
He won't let me.
now to me it is you who seems to have absolutes .. they may be given to you by another but you hold fast to them ...
is it wrong to steal a gun from some one who you know is vert likely to use the said gun to harm others ...
is it wrong to steal food from a rich household to feed a person dieing of starvation
are there true absolutes of good and evil ...i dont know ... i hope not because that would be a limit we how good we could be .. i hope there is a infinate depth of good , then we can keep striving for more and better levels of goodness....
this is one of the issue of some other giving us the answer .. it sets a final mark ...in such a case what do you do once you have ticked all the boxes ..
my
indignation as to Gods potential treatment of what you consider a good person indicates
only a seeming lack of understanding on his part .. the lack of thinking outside the box .. of reasoning why such a Ten selfless people have not earnt a trip to hell ( what ever that is ).. if we as mere humans can see the reason why all should be treathed the same ... why does a supreme being not ?.. can we not require of such a being higher standards than we can achive ... even if only in intent .
rewording
If one has to follow the message and its rules then one passes the justification for any law, or action driven by that law , into the hands of the giver of the message
if you allow another to write the set of rules you choose to follow ,with out question , with out the choice to re evaluate those rules in differing condistion, with out the ability to debate those rules , then you hand over the responciblity for your action to another ...you say i must be lead .. i can not reason for myself ...mine is not to think , merely carry out given instructions... and then where is any value in what you do .. Mr Robot....
Determine good or bad against which measure? If it's your own measure, and your own measure can alter to suit your book then all you're saying is that; what you reason to be right is right and vice versa.
The good samaritan and the paedophile can operate in precisely the same way.
i may reason , but i do not live in isolation , i have to justifie my actions both to myself and the whole world ...
if is reason stealing is ok in all cases i will soon find the fault in my reasoning ....
just as the samaritans and the paedophiles actions will effect how the rest of humanity react to them ... its called feed back ...
One thing that Gods standard says to me is that I, unlike you, don't need to fumble around in the dark wondering what is right and wrong anymore.
and there you have your absolutes ...
and this is the dangers , doubt is the greatest gift we have , question everything , do not fall back on dogma , treat every situation as new , answers are a end to reason ...
do not accept it when some one say you dont understand the Mind of the message ...demand to see the working out .. and the again ask Why...
as to you presuming me to be a unbelive ... show me what it is and i will tell you if i belive in it ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 07-09-2008 7:15 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
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