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Author Topic:   The Obama Nation
Rahvin
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Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 17 of 171 (477555)
08-04-2008 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
08-03-2008 11:02 PM


Re: McBama: Two sides of the same coin
Ah, lolbertarians: shirking their debt to society and saying "Fuck you, I've got mine!" since 1857!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-03-2008 11:02 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2008 4:41 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 19 of 171 (477561)
08-04-2008 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
08-04-2008 4:41 PM


Re: McBama: Two sides of the same coin
Don't you know what libertarianism is, NJ?
From Wiki:
quote:
The first known use in a political sense of the term translated into English as libertarian was by the French anarcho-communist Joseph Déjacque[6] who in 1857 employed the coinage libertaire in a letter to Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.[7] The English term is thus derived from a word which in French is synonymous with anarchist.[8]
Proudhon himself outlined a libertarian social philosophy consisting of "an analysis of the power relations underlying existing forms of political authority" and, further, "a vision of an alternative libertarian society based on cooperation as opposed to competition and coercion, and functioning without the need for government authority."
Less (or no) taxes, minimal (or none!) government or public oversight, private services instead of public?
Extreme libertarians are anarchists. "Moderate" libertarians simply ignore the fact that, from the moment you're delivered in a hospital, you are being lifted up by the rest of society and owe society an unpayable debt. They want lower taxes and believe social services like welfare are unfairly taking their "hard-earned money," ignoring the fact that taking away these programs would condemn many people to homelessness and death. They think that private services like the private healthcare industry are "better" than government-run social services due to competition and that this is self-evident, yet ignore the example of history, where private fire departments would set fires to make profits, and the modern example of the healthcare industry where millions of Americans cannot even afford to visit the doctor, sometimes even when they have coverage.
All of us owe the rest of society a debt that can't be paid, becasue we're all constantly dinking at the public trough. Water, food, medicine, housing, electricity, police, fire, all are provided by society as a whole, and we all have the responsibility to contribute back to society in the form of taxes at the very least. I don't have a problem at all with higher taxes for additional welfare and unemployment funding, public healthcare, or other social services, becasue I owe society for the standard of living I have, and I don't believe people deserve to be homeless when some tax dollars from all of us can afford to give them housing and food.
I don't have a problem with social libertarianism - by all means, people should be allowed as much freedom to exercise their beliefs and lifestyles without government interference as possible. Religion, sexual orientation, art, and other things should all be far outside the purview of governemnt. I strongly agree with this side of libertarianism.
But economic libertarianism begins with the idea that you, and only you, have earned every penny that you are paid, ignoring all of the support from society that allows you to do so. If you're poor, well, we shouldn't be forced to help you raise your standard of living and become a productive menmber of society - those people don't deserve to receive any of your hard-earned cash, right? Obviously private charities can do the same job, can't they? Because everyone would obviously give to charities if given the choice so that we'd have enough to support the needy. (I find this particularly ridiculous - libertarians claim that we shouldn't be forced to support the poor with public funds, yet insist private charity can do the same job? The only motivation is that making public welfare no longer mandatory through taxes but instead optional through charity means that the libertarian can choose not to help support the needy - ie, fuck you, I've got mine!)
Libertarians worship the free market as if free market systems actually work when not constrained by the governemnt, or are even appropriate for all solutions. Fee market solutions are not working, for example, in the current American healthcare system, where healthcare costs are rising at an astronomical rate each year instead of lowering from "competition," and the incentives are currently organised so that care is determined not by the patient's best interest but by how much the provider will need to pay. In America, if you develop a serious illness that costs more than your coverage affords, you can be faced with the choice of death or being in debt for the rest of your life. Countries that already utilize public medicine, something libertarians scream and cry at, do not have such problems. Remember Enron? Deregulation worked wonders there, didn't it. Deregulation and cutting of government subsidies for infrastructure (supported of course by libertarians, since private industry and the free market should work to ensure everyone has power and the infrastructure is kept updated without "government interference" or taxpayer dollars) have ensured that our nation's infrastructure has fallen behind and often fallen into disrepair. And who cares about stringing power lines to people in rural areas where there's no profit potential for the power company? The free market system says we shouldn't do that; only government subsidies encourage such ventures.
Free market systems can and do work, but not the libertarian way where "oversight" is a bad word and the market is somehow a magically self-correcting entity that always works in everyone's best interest. Face it - the libertarian world increases the social ills of America rather than solving even a single one, all for the sake of "lower taxes."
Perhaps you don't ascribe to those parts of libertarianism, NJ, but the basic philosophy of "I shouldn't have to pay taxes that are then given to people who didn't earn the money themselves" irks me. Government oversight, where the incentive is to get elected and so to actually improve the standard of living for the citizenry rather than the profits of private corporations, is necessary to keep the good aspects of a free market system without letting the bad parts run out of control. It means that while I'll support the social implications of libertarianism, their economic policies tend to be even worse than the Neo-Cons. I want to move toward single-payer, universal healthcare, public assistance for housing and transportation, more public funding for education and infrastructure, and services for the disabled, not away from them.
Libertarians are dreaming of a free-market utopia of voluntary human cooperation that is every much the pipe dream communism is. The moment you add actual human beings to the equasion, libertarianism fails for ironically enough the exact same reasons its mirror opposite communism has failed: human greed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2008 4:41 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2008 6:53 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 35 of 171 (478003)
08-10-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by anglagard
08-10-2008 5:32 PM


Re: Everyone Who Disagrees is a Socialist
Note how "ZOMG SOCIALIST!" is thrown around as some sort of dire warning...
but no actual rebuttalis given. Nobody ever says why a given policy is "bad" beyond decrying it as socialist.
That's a pretty big clue that conservitards have no actual argument beyond their childish namecalling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by anglagard, posted 08-10-2008 5:32 PM anglagard has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 48 of 171 (478576)
08-18-2008 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
08-17-2008 10:53 PM


Because he's claiming he's never been one when he knows better. He was born a Muslim and given a Muslim name.
Why is he disclaiming ever being a Muslim? Because most terrorists on the planet are Muslims and it wouldn't bode well for his bid for the highest office on the planet.
Both his father and step father were Muslims, the latter the more devout as I understand it. Evidently his mother favored Muslim husbands as she married two of them.
Obama's so called Christian church at Chicago is cozy with the Nation of Islam here in America, awarding the highest honor to Muslim Louis Farrakhan. There's a reason Obama favored that church. Go figure.
I have never had the displeasure of discourse with a racist of your caliber, Buzsaw.
Every single thing you post revolves around "OH MY GOD HES A MUSLIM AND HES GOING TO KILL US ALL!"
As if the fact that his father, who did not even raise him, was a Muslim means that he is a Muslim.
As if being recognized as a Muslim by the Muslim world in teh same way a Jew can still be recognized as a Jew even after conversion makes him a Muslim.
As if being Muslim means he's a terrorist.
Congratulations on revealing yourself to be the exact sort of racist, bigoted, disgusting, ignorant piece of shit that Al'Qaeda was hoping we were. Because you are exactly what they hoped for on September 11th, Buzsaw.
They want us to react out of racism, ignorance, and most of all, out of fear. That's what the terrorists wanted, and it's exactly what you're giving them. You and the author of this idiotic book are actively working to destroy the tolerance, freedom, and welcoming spirit that defined America as exemplified by the Statue of Liberty and our Constitution, the America that treated people of all races and all religions fairly and equally.
You're scared, and in your fear you're buying all the lies anyone can stick in your face, and not even noticing the fact that it wouldn't even matter if it were true. Unless you're a racist, who simply thinks that Muslims are terrorists and that's that.
So feel free to continue to let Al'Qaeda win by letting their actions terrorize you into expressing this sort of racist, fearmongering, divisive nonsense. The irony of someone who opposes Al'Qaeda so strongly doing exactly what they want would be hilarious if the reality weren't so disgusting and pathetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 08-17-2008 10:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 53 of 171 (478745)
08-20-2008 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Modulous
08-20-2008 9:33 AM


Re: Libel
Since when has something 'heavily lawyered' necessarily been accurate? Furthermore, if Obama wanted to sue for libel, what would he be required to demonstrate? Is it possible that a lawyer could ensure their client is technically protected against litigation even if the offending comments are blatantly false?
In the US, that's certainly possible. Our libel laws are rather backwards. The person accused of libel does not need to prove that his statements are true, but rather that victim needs to prove that the person accused of libel knowingly made false statements and that these statements had a detrimental effect.
There are additional rules regarding individuals in the public eye.
Due to the difficulties in proving what someone did or did not know, and proving such things as one's religion when the entire thrust of the book is "he's lying, he's a secret Muslim!" it's doubtful Obama will sue. It's just not a worthwhile exercise, and it would only give morons like Buz who actually believe this tripe or even think it matters an additional persecution complex. "See, the liberal media and the activist judges are hiding the truth! They're trying to silence the book that exposes Obama as a secret jihadist! That must mean the book is true!"
It's more effective for Obama to simply come out and effectively say "these guys are full of crap, don't know what they're talking about, and their statements basically boil down to divisive racist bullshit. Since that's not what I want my campaign to be about, this is the last I'll say on the matter."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 08-20-2008 9:33 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 66 of 171 (478812)
08-20-2008 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Buzsaw
08-20-2008 10:03 PM


Re: Communism/Socialism
Subbie, friend, no; for sure, Obama is no idiot. Like Hitler, he's a master charismatic minipulator/orator who can present himself as all things to all men. With Palosi and Co, all Obama things are possible to change America from the US of A into the American Socalist Regime. (ASR).
I'm sorry, did you just compare Obama to fucking Hitler?
And as usual, you've insisted that Obama's "bad" because his policies are "socialist" without describing how they are socialist or why that would be bad.
And I assure you, people in actual socialist countries would laugh at the idea that any of Obama's policies are "socialist." And as a quality of life measurement, I'd be very happy to live in most of the European socialist countries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2008 10:03 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2008 11:20 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 69 of 171 (478822)
08-20-2008 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Buzsaw
08-20-2008 11:20 PM


Re: Communism/Socialism
quote:
Rahvin writes:
And as usual, you've insisted that Obama's "bad" because his policies are "socialist" without describing how they are socialist or why that would be bad.
Rahvin, did you even read my message in this very thread regarding his socialism before posting your personl attack?
You mean this one?
1. Obama's stated ambitions for government and his past record is and has been socialistic for the most part.
The bare assertion that Obama's voting record has been "socialist" without demonstrating in what way his positions are socialist? The implication that "socialist = bad" in all circumstances?
You mean when you did exactly what I said you did?
2. When he did't vote the leftist POV he simply refused to vote whenever a leftist vote would be unpopular for his political ambitions.
And this is different from any other politician...how?
3. His socialist/Marxist mentor, Frank, would be proud of his record and the slick way he skirts around the specifics of issues in statements he makes while campaigning. He has mastered the ability to be all things to all men that he might win the maximum. A good example of this is his statement on the 2nd Amendment which is the right to bear arms.
His statement was that he knew what he believed about the 2nd Amendment and that he knew it guaranteed the right to bear arms. What he didn't tell America is what he thought about the 2nd Amendment or whether he agreed to it. Nor did he say whether he would honor it as stated or interpret it as gun owners interpret it.
Oh! Would you look there! More accusations of "socialism" without substantiating how his policies are socialist, with yet more insinuations that "socialist" policies are "bad" in all circumstances! And then you tack on a "he answered the question, but didn't specifically say he'd support the 2nd Amendment!"
I know Jesus himself would need to come down and tell you that Obama is neither socialist nor Muslim, but Christ!
Do you even know what socialism is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2008 11:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 70 of 171 (478823)
08-20-2008 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
08-20-2008 11:09 PM


Re: Red Herring Charge
Hi QED99. Welcome to EvC. If this is so much of a red herring, you surely should have no problem in substantiating your claim by stating your reasons why it's a red herring. Please educate us all on the www here.
Because a presidential candidate's religion is compeltely irrelevant to his candidacy, unless you're a racist idiot like you, Buz.
Because accusations of "socialism" have been thrown around since the McCarthy era, and if you can't present a reasoned rebuttal of specific positions a candidate has beyond "zomg socialist!" then such accusations are similarly irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2008 11:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:02 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 80 of 171 (478913)
08-21-2008 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Buzsaw
08-21-2008 11:02 PM


Re: Red Herring Charge
YOU NEED TO EITHER RETRACT THE PERSONAL ATTACK RACIST CHARGE OR CITE ANY RACIST STATEMENT THAT I POSTED, RAHVIN Otherwise we'll need to deal with your message in the forum for that purpose.
This entire fucking thread is a testament to your racism, bigot. The entire point from the beginning has been "Obama is a secret Muslim out to destroy America!"
Because of his skin color and "foreign-sounding" name, you have repeatedly insisted that he is in actuality a Muslim, withotu any real evidence that this is the case, and you've pretended that his religion matters.
You've been claiming in virtually this entire thread that Obama is secretly a terrorist, Buz, based solely on his name, skin color, and a few details about his early childhood. That is racism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:27 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 82 of 171 (478915)
08-21-2008 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Buzsaw
08-21-2008 11:02 PM


Re: Red Herring Charge
To give some additional substance for my previous comments:
Quoted by you:
quote:
Obama's extensive connections with Islam and radical politics, from his father's and stepfather's Islamic backgrounds, to his Communist and socialist mentors in Hawaii and Chicago, to his long-term and close associations with former Weather Underground heroes William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn”associations much closer than heretofore revealed by the press Barack and wife Michelle's twenty-year-long religious affiliation with the black-liberation theology of former Trinity United Church of Christ Reverend Jeremiah Wright, whose sermons have always been steeped in a rage first expressed by Frantz Fanon, Stokely Carmichael, and Malcolm X, a rage that Corsi shows has deep meaning for Obama
ZOMG! That uppity nigger might get elected!
I might add that Floyd Brown, political activist who has circulated adds revealing the fact that Obama was a Muslim through age 7 etc. He is also under attack for these adds, which, btw, are also accurate.
In the eyes of the Muslim world, Obama is a Muslim. That's how Islam works. Once a Muslim = a Muslim to death as per Haddiths, Sunnas and the Koran. Thus the endorsement by Jehadist Hammas and most of the Muslim world for Obama as the US and for that matter the planet top man in authority.
OMG he's a Muslim and the Jihadis like him!
Because he's claiming he's never been one when he knows better. He was born a Muslim and given a Muslim name.
Why is he disclaiming ever being a Muslim? Because most terrorists on the planet are Muslims and it wouldn't bode well for his bid for the highest office on the planet.
Both his father and step father were Muslims, the latter the more devout as I understand it. Evidently his mother favored Muslim husbands as she married two of them.
Obama's so called Christian church at Chicago is cozy with the Nation of Islam here in America, awarding the highest honor to Muslim Louis Farrakhan. There's a reason Obama favored that church. Go figure.
He has a Muslim name, so he must be a terrorist!!!
Fuck, Buz, do I really need to continue?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:36 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 91 of 171 (478925)
08-22-2008 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Buzsaw
08-21-2008 11:36 PM


Re: Red Herring Charge
I'm not retracting, Buz. I don't expect you to concede that your comments are racist - racists frequently insist that they are not, in fact, racist.
Everyone else can see it pretty plainly. You're using insinuations and "connections" instead of outright saying it, but dog-whistle racism isn't new.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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