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Author
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Topic: update: freedom found, natural selection theory pushed aside
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 61 of 224 (479475)
08-27-2008 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 60 by Syamsu
08-27-2008 3:50 PM
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Re: Freedom is real science proved it
Syamsu,
I suggest to use the common methods of daily life by which we determine something acts forced or freely. In which case physical laws are non-free. They act in the same way every time, which is consistent with non-freedom, not freedom. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by Syamsu, posted 08-27-2008 3:50 PM | | Syamsu has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 68 of 224 (479528)
08-28-2008 4:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 67 by Syamsu
08-28-2008 3:10 AM
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Re: Ridiculous
Syamsu,
"In taking into account the retarded gravitational potential in the Newtonian equation, the equation of general relativity is obtained in introducing anticipative propagation of the gravitational field. The anticipation is stronger than for the electromagnetic field, because it is dependent not only on the velocity but also on the acceleration." (Anticipative effect in relativistic physical systems, exemplified by the perihelion of the Mercury planet, Daniel M. DUBOIS, Centre for Hyperincursion and Anticipation in Ordered Systems)
Please elaborate on exactly what is going on here. How does this system not follow physical laws & therefore behave in a constrictive & totally non-freedom way? Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by Syamsu, posted 08-28-2008 3:10 AM | | Syamsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by Syamsu, posted 08-28-2008 7:06 AM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 74 of 224 (479617)
08-28-2008 7:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 69 by Syamsu
08-28-2008 7:06 AM
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Syamsu,
It seems to me the instantaneous propagation requires decisions. 1/ What do you mean by instantaneous propagation? 2/ Where does this appear in the orbit of mercury which has had its orbit predicted? Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by Syamsu, posted 08-28-2008 7:06 AM | | Syamsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by Syamsu, posted 08-29-2008 4:31 PM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 77 of 224 (479661)
08-29-2008 9:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Syamsu
08-28-2008 7:45 PM
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message 69 please
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Syamsu, posted 08-28-2008 7:45 PM | | Syamsu has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 83 of 224 (479711)
08-29-2008 5:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Syamsu
08-29-2008 4:31 PM
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Syamsu, You said:
syamsu writes: It seems to me the instantaneous propagation requires decisions But when I ask what an "instantaneous propagation" is, you said:
syamsu writes: Meaning the decision is instantaneous over the distance, but the transfer of energy limited by the speed of light That's circular reasoning. You have to assume your conclusion in order to accept your premises. Of course "instantaneous propagation" requires decisions in your view, you have defined it as requiring decisions. So, what you need to demonstrate is whether the orbit of Mercury displays "instantaneous propagation". Is this testable?
The peculiar perihilion of mercury is described by general relativity before. Exactly, it follows known laws of physics, it "appears" to be constrained by them, it doesn't do anything but obey those laws. How can you possibly claim decisions are being made that infer freedom when exactly the opposite of freedom is evident? Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Syamsu, posted 08-29-2008 4:31 PM | | Syamsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by Syamsu, posted 08-30-2008 4:50 AM | | mark24 has replied | | | Message 87 by mark24, posted 08-30-2008 11:41 AM | | mark24 has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 87 of 224 (479790)
08-30-2008 11:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 83 by mark24
08-29-2008 5:44 PM
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. Edited by mark24, : No reason given.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by mark24, posted 08-29-2008 5:44 PM | | mark24 has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 88 of 224 (479794)
08-30-2008 11:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 85 by Syamsu
08-30-2008 4:50 AM
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Syamsu, I asked;
mark writes: So, what you need to demonstrate is whether the orbit of Mercury displays "instantaneous propagation". Is this testable? You replied:
It logically follows that motion is useless as a measure of time for instantaneous action ove a distance, leaving decision which logically works. Motion isn't a measure of time for instantaneous action anyway, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Please answer the question. Marf
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by Syamsu, posted 08-30-2008 4:50 AM | | Syamsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by Syamsu, posted 08-30-2008 12:28 PM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 92 of 224 (479809)
08-30-2008 12:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by Syamsu
08-30-2008 12:28 PM
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Syamsu,
Obviously it is testable, but it's not neccessarily the case that it would lead to a different result as GR. So how is it testable?
So throwing heads or tails probalisticly leads to 50/50 observation of heads or tails, the observer being the scientist, but in anticapatory terms the coin flipping system observes itself, it decides it's own state, but the result is basically the same. So how is it testable? As far as I can see you are proposing something that is exactly the same as existing physical laws. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by Syamsu, posted 08-30-2008 12:28 PM | | Syamsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by Syamsu, posted 08-30-2008 12:56 PM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 102 of 224 (479976)
08-31-2008 11:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Syamsu
08-30-2008 12:56 PM
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Syamsu,
It is testable if or not the planet behaves the same way as light, particle wave duality etc. It doesn't as far as I know. So way back in message 65 when Straggler (I think) asked how gravity could be anticipatory & you threw out Mercury's orbit as an example, it turns out not to be? You could have saved us a lot of time by admitting you didn't know Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Syamsu, posted 08-30-2008 12:56 PM | | Syamsu has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 150 of 224 (480148)
09-01-2008 6:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 147 by Syamsu
09-01-2008 6:01 AM
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Re: Determinism
Syamsu,
As far as I know in standard quantum theory the decision is with the observer (or actually the issue of decisionmaking is fudged with the scientist as an observer, as explained before 50/50 uncertainty of the scientist, instead of indeterminacy of the system itself), and therefore there is no indeterminacy in quantum theory. The observer does not make a decision, though. Obvious really. You haven't really thought this through, have you? Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 147 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 6:01 AM | | Syamsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 151 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 7:40 AM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 157 of 224 (480185)
09-01-2008 10:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 151 by Syamsu
09-01-2008 7:40 AM
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Re: Determinism
Syamsu, But the observer isn't making a decision. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 7:40 AM | | Syamsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 159 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 11:05 AM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 163 of 224 (480207)
09-01-2008 12:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by Syamsu
09-01-2008 11:05 AM
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Re: Determinism
Syamsu,
The observer is most definitely making a decision. An observation, and measurement device doesnt work, but a deciding device does work. The observer is not making a decision about the state of the object under observation. Anything else is irrelevant. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 11:05 AM | | Syamsu has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 177 of 224 (480345)
09-02-2008 5:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 176 by Syamsu
09-02-2008 4:59 PM
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Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
Syamsu,
As said before in quantum theory the issue of freedom is fudged with the observer. NO, IT ISN'T. THE OBSERVER DOES NOT MAKE ANY CHOICE AS TO THE STATE OF THE OBJECT UNDER OBSERVATION. IGNORING MY POSTS WON'T MAKE THIS NOT TRUE.
Its simply not the case that scientists generally support freedom, or unpredictability as you say. Yes it is. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by Syamsu, posted 09-02-2008 4:59 PM | | Syamsu has not replied |
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