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Author | Topic: Creationism in science classrooms (an argument for) | |||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you just said. If I was modest, I might even say I couldn't say it better myself. But quantity has a quality all of its own, as Stalin once said so I'm giving myself half an extra mark Hey it's your thread so your rules apply. back. However while I have my soapbox out.......... I was a science teacher in a previous life. I know many who still are. These are normal people with a wide range of attitudes and beliefs. Their main professional concern is dealing with a series of ever-changing syllabi, exams and guidelines whilst at the same time tackling the low aspirations and lack of enthusiasm, for education in general, of a proportion of their class who see school as little more than day prison. In short, whilst most would agree in principle with the need to keep religion out of the science classroom, it is hardly the burning issue of their day to day lives as teachers. I doubt many have even considered the question to a fraction of the extent that those of us preoccupied enough with such things as to spend our time discussing them from afar on internet forums, have done. It therefore seems grossly unfair to expect, or require, science teachers to be unwittingly thrown into the front line of the eternal debate between religion and science.I don't think many science teachers have the appetite for the issue required to turn their classrooms into the battlefields on which the long campaign to tackle the role of religion in society is to be fought. Nor do I think it does the teachers, the pupils or the education system as whole any good to force educators to be the foot soldiers of such wider principles. If people are being taught disproved irrational nonsense by their parents, churches, community leaders or whoever else then that is a problem for society as a whole. Not just for, or even primarily for, science teachers. If anything we should be protecting the science education of students by keeping this whole debate as far away from the science classroom as is possible instead of making science teaching the focal point of discussions that should be much much wider in context. Thankyou for listening. I'll put my soapbox away now.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Of course you have to use child psychology to effectively teach children, but in science class, it's SCIENCE you have to teach them effectively. And I'm not proposing teaching anything else. Ethics and social issues regarding science are part of teaching about science. Merely teaching theory and scientific facts does not seem to me to be a well-rounded science education.
To a degree, this was done in my science classes, but you have to be careful how you say this, b/c if anything, you might alienate some kids with this kind of statement. Absolutely agree. And yes, it is not (last I checked) outright forbidden to discuss these issues - it is now officially recommended to not bring them up, though.
But I don't think these above 2 points by you really constitute what most people think of when allowing "Creationism in science classrooms" is brought up. Indeed - yet I don't see Reiss saying anything significantly different. Whatever preconceptions people have to the concept of Creationism in the classroom should be divorced from the actual proposal at hand.
I do not think we should tell anybody that it's possible to be religious and accept evolution. Some people's religious beliefs are such that they can't accept evolution, and they are entitled to their beliefs. I think however, that the point that can be made is that regardless of their religious beliefs, then can learn about evolution. I agree with the latter sentiment about stressing that regardless of belief it is possible to still learn about evolution. However, I have met adults who were not even aware that it was possible to marry evolution with religious thought, since it is in fact possible (I remember having the discussion with my mother: Like many boys I loved dinosaurs, but I was an independently minded Christian type. I noted the incongruity of Genesis creation and dinosaurs living millions of years before humans. She explained the CofE's position to me: I was fortunate where others may not be so. I later had a teacher who discussed theistic evolution and the argument of design - but I'm sure many others missed out on this valuable lesson).
I do not see it serving any need to teach kids in science class that the non-scientific idea of creationism is out there, but that it doesn't have the same status as evolution. Again, the idea is non-scientific and doing this type of thing might serve to alienate some. It is a significantly held position, and it is likely, given the statistics - that school children will encounter people whose religious upbringing leads them to reject a major scientific theory. A significant number will be alienated or cruelly confused by the mixed messages going on.
I'm not that old, so I don't speak from first hand experience, but my notion was that current generations are more receptive (less hostile) to science than any previous generations. Is this incorrect? If it's not incorrect, then why should be go fixing something that isn't broken? It seems that we are actually stalling and possibly falling. A significant religious explosion has happened recently, and England seems to following, at least partially, in America's footsteps with trust in science going downwards. Added with a fairly sizeable Muslim population and ideas like Creationism are gaining strength.
Can you substantiate this claim please? Can you specifically point out the signs of failure in the current system? No problem.
quote: A tripling of uncertainty in the last 20 years? If the "Don't even mention creationism" system is the best one - then we're surely doomed. Obviously, it is not the only factor in play but I hypothesize that it is significant. I believe other scholars have pointed out the paradox of a country which attempts to separate church and state so vigorously has such high religiosity and fundamentalism.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
As Straggler already stated Science class is about showing you understand what's taught in science, regardless of whether or not you accept it. So if a student persistently answers questions which are some variant of 'god did it' in exams, the teacher has every right to give them a poor mark. More than a right, a duty.
But suppose the teacher did consider a students religious leanings and gives more favourable marks, what about the other 75% of students who do make the effort to study hard and understand the science as taught? It would be highly unfair massively ludicrous and totally outrageous. Recent moves in America indicate that this might one day soon be an issue they have to deal with.
I realise that these may be worst case scenarios, but it does suggest the more wide-reaching detrimental effects that could potentially occur. Indeed they could. But unless you are making an oblique political argument that by acknowledging the existence of creationism we will find ourselves giving equal marks to creationist answers, I don't see your point. I'm not proposing giving credit to creationism. I'm just saying that its existence be acknowledged and the mental roadblocks it will present for those students be tackled so that they can actually learn about evolution, and the rest of science, without feeling the relationship is necessarily antagonistic.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I agree and disagree. I concede that your points are very strong, and I think we have both put elucidated where our positions differ. Maybe some other time I'll have put more thought into the 'Teachers as foot soldiers in the culture wars' line of reasoning and will be able to grace it with thoughtful commentary for future debate.
Until then...
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
This is the problem evolution is such crap that the evolutionists are actually paranoid to stand up to the Gentry's, Baumgardeners, Browns. Its not because creationists arguments are crap but an evolutionists would have to be crazy to defend the scientific merits of the theory of evolution!!!!!!!! P.S. The kids should be taught this in the public schools and the teachers should not be threatened of losing tenure for refusing to teach lies as if it was the truth!!!!!!! And that was crazy, malign, paranoid, and illiterate crap. This is why people like you aren't allowed to write school textbooks.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thread copied to the Creationism in science classrooms (an argument for) thread in the Education and Creation/Evolution forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.
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