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Author Topic:   Is my rock designed?
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 251 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


(1)
Message 16 of 219 (482129)
09-14-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Jack
09-11-2008 8:42 AM


Now I can really understand ID (maybe...)
Thank you, Mr Jack! Yours is the first truly helpful post I have ever found anywhere for getting a better of understanding ID. And the reference you cited provides exactly the kind of official, authoritative and (dare I hope?) complete exposition of the theory. Surely others have pointed to the seminal paper by Dembski, but why has this been so seldom done?

Well, it's clear that the issue of discerning the presence/absence of design for the rock in question is in fact not so simple, and there are some details to be considered carefully. To wit, in determining whether the rock may have been the result of chance, there is this vital subtletly (italics as per the original):

Dembski writes:

Invariably, what is needed to eliminate chance is that the event in question conform to a pattern. Not just any pattern will do, however. Some patterns can legitimately be employed to eliminate chance whereas others cannot.

A bit of terminology will prove helpful here. The "good" patterns will be called specifications. Specifications are the non-ad hoc patterns that can legitimately be used to eliminate chance and warrant a design inference. In contrast, the "bad" patterns may be called fabrications. Fabrications are the ad hoc patterns that cannot legitimately be used to eliminate chance.

The rock could be "fabricated" (e.g. a piece of concrete or a mosaic tile having a particular shape, size and color), but that's not the right sense of "fabrication" here, I gather. Still, those are bound to be very useful terms.

And then there is this very crucial caveat about the whole exercise:

Dembski writes:

When the Explanatory Filter fails to detect design in a thing, can we be sure no intelligent cause underlies it? The answer to this question is No. For determining that something is not designed, the Explanatory Filter is not a reliable criterion. False negatives are a problem for the Explanatory Filter. This problem of false negatives, however, is endemic to detecting intelligent causes.

Well, I suppose this would be the time to appeal to something like Pascal's wager... Might as well play it safe, and chalk everything up to design. There now, we have successfully applied ID to the problem, and it really wasn't so very complicated after all!

But wait... Isn't ID only supposed to apply to living things? You know (we all know), it's really just a refutation Godless evolution, which has nothing at all to say about rocks, so maybe ID isn't supposed to apply to rocks either, which would mean that rocks can't be designed!

Heck, I'm still confused. But thanks anyway -- this has been a moving experience for me (even if the movement has been circular).

Edited by Otto Tellick, : grammar repair


autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.
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BVZ
Member (Idle past 3411 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 17 of 219 (482138)
09-15-2008 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Jack
09-12-2008 5:03 AM


Can you post photos?

I can. However, I dont know how to post images on this forum.


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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2414 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 18 of 219 (482145)
09-15-2008 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Otto Tellick
09-14-2008 9:34 PM


Re: Now I can really understand ID (maybe...)
taking your point re ID is only for living stuff not rocks ..

living things can sit on rocks , can pick up rocks , can throw rocks , some birds use rocks to break open snail shells .. so if the living stuff WAS designed .. some of that design took into account the exsistance of rocks .. so rocks came before designer and living stuff ...so are rocks godlike then ? or at least semi divine .. as they needed no designer ?


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Percy
Member
Posts: 17739
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 19 of 219 (482149)
09-15-2008 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by BVZ
09-15-2008 1:34 AM


BVZ writes:

I can. However, I dont know how to post images on this forum.

Same way as almost all other forums. This forum uses an extended superset, called dBCodes, of the standard codes, but you can pretty much count on all the standard codes being available. Let me know if there seems to be a code missing from the repertoire.

--Percy


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3867
Joined: 09-26-2002


(1)
Message 20 of 219 (482153)
09-15-2008 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Percy
09-15-2008 5:29 AM


Posting photos
Percy, I think the problem is that his has an original photo on his hands, not one already somewhere on the internet.

If so, what he needs to do is upload the photo somewhere else (photobucket?) and then use this forums codes to import that image.

Perhaps this forum needs to have its own graphics dump site. There would need to be some sort of limit per member.

But such considerations probably belong in the Private Administration Forum.

Adminnemooseus


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BVZ
Member (Idle past 3411 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 21 of 219 (482157)
09-15-2008 6:03 AM


Is there an expert in ID on this forum? Could we get him in here?
Because my rock is just sitting there, whispering to me.

"Am I designed? Am I?" is sais... in my dreams... I think it hates me.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 22 of 219 (482166)
09-15-2008 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by BVZ
09-12-2008 1:41 AM


sounds to me like it could besome form of granite (although granite is more light-brown than black, so . . .).
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3511 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 23 of 219 (482208)
09-15-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by BVZ
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


Below link is an abstract to the concept of design the way creationists use it.

Towards an anticipatory view of design

I think for it to be designed, it must either first exist in the future as a whole, or it must be a result of informed and reasoned decisions, or the rock must be ordered according to universal language.

Ofcouse all things are created, including your rock. God is not a thing, neither are love, fear or hope things according to creationism.

Edited by Admin, : Shorten long URL.


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1564 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 24 of 219 (482211)
09-15-2008 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by BVZ
09-15-2008 6:03 AM


I think it hates me

Normally I would put this down to simple paranoia, but in this case, I think you may be right... What is more, I think the feeling extends across all rocks. I am sorry - not an enviable position...


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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 109 days)
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 25 of 219 (482212)
09-15-2008 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Syamsu
09-15-2008 12:46 PM


Syamsu,

1) Your link doesn't work.

2) Your level of written English is way below that which is needed to explain your ideas. I know that English is not your first language, but you are wasting your time at the moment, because your language barrier is rendering your posts into gibberish. A statement like this;

I think for it to be designed, it must either first exist in the future as a whole

is entirely devoid of meaning.

3) You have conspicuously failed to provide evidence for your future-decisions-anticipation drivel in the appropriate thread, so it is a bit rich for you to drag it in here.

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12558
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 26 of 219 (482215)
09-15-2008 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Syamsu
09-15-2008 12:46 PM


Hi Syamsu,

Please stop participating in this thread. Thanks.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3511 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 27 of 219 (482224)
09-15-2008 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Syamsu
09-15-2008 12:46 PM


Oops, that paper seems to be just nearly the creationist concept of design, but not quite.
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 28 of 219 (482225)
09-15-2008 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Syamsu
09-15-2008 1:32 PM


You were asked to stop posting here
Your post was over 20 minutes after you were asked to stay out of here.

Since your post is reasonably harmless I'll only suspend you for a short time.


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subbie
Member
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 29 of 219 (482240)
09-15-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by kuresu
09-15-2008 7:22 AM


sounds to me like it could besome form of granite

Isn't that just like you anti-god "evilutionist" types, always taking everything for granite.

:)


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


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BVZ
Member (Idle past 3411 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 30 of 219 (482334)
09-16-2008 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Syamsu
09-15-2008 12:46 PM



Below link is an abstract to the concept of design the way creationists use it.

Towards an anticipatory view of design

Your link is broken.


I think for it to be designed, it must either first exist in the future as a whole,

What... not broken? I will take good care of it I promise.


or it must be a result of informed and reasoned decisions, or the rock must be ordered according to universal language.

Excelent work! So... how do I figure our if my rock (I think I will name him Stumpie) is 'the result of informed and reasoned decisions'? It refuses to tell me, no matter how many times I ask!


Ofcouse all things are created, including your rock.

So everything is designed? So... ID works like this: Q: Is X designed? A: Yes.

What use it it then if the answer is always yes?


God is not a thing, neither are love, fear or hope things according to creationism.

Ok. Erm... Ok. So... what?


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