Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence for God
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 123 of 213 (482465)
09-16-2008 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Granny Magda
09-16-2008 6:36 PM


Re: Not a Real Skeptic
Why do you believe that the world exists? You have no evidence. Not a single thing. Completely blind faith. You have not broken my argument. You can never prove that the world exists. I don't jump off buildings because I have fallen before and I know what pain feels like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Granny Magda, posted 09-16-2008 6:36 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Granny Magda, posted 09-16-2008 7:29 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 128 of 213 (482509)
09-16-2008 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Granny Magda
09-16-2008 8:03 PM


Re: Not a Real Skeptic
You have formally admitted to being defeated by this argument. You merely state that you have no patience of this one because it has defeated you in the past as well. I am glad that you are acknowledging exactly what you are doing.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Granny Magda, posted 09-16-2008 8:03 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Granny Magda, posted 09-16-2008 9:23 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 131 of 213 (482551)
09-17-2008 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Granny Magda
09-16-2008 9:23 PM


Re: Not a Real Skeptic
Since most atheists reject philosophical proofs of G-d, and are instead focused on evidence, I will give you a mathematical proof from evidence. Multiplication of two numbers will yield the same answer as addition of the two numbers. The evidence is 2+2=4 and 2*2=4. You have been given evidence that multiplication and addition will give the same answers. In short, evidence is never considered a logical proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Granny Magda, posted 09-16-2008 9:23 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 12:46 AM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 133 of 213 (482557)
09-17-2008 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Granny Magda
09-17-2008 12:46 AM


Re: Not a Real Skeptic
The evidence is the Torah and the existence of the Jewish people. Another piece of evidence is the existence of a conscious and free will.
The existence of anything proves that there was a creator as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 12:46 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 1:00 AM Open MInd has replied
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 1:16 AM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 137 of 213 (482599)
09-17-2008 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Granny Magda
09-17-2008 1:16 AM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Are you a fool. You would not follow the word of G-d if evidence was poking you in the eye. You should admit that you do not want to accept any evidence and just stop arguing. No atheist has ever fooled me by claiming that he is searching for evidence or seeking out the truth. Your mind is manipulated by your bias. Did you ever admit defeat in a debate? If so how many times? If many times, what were the consequences? No consequences could have possibly been as great as admitting defeat in this kind of debate. It is beyond your capability to admit defeat in this matter. Therefore, it is logical to not try to argue with you. As I have said to agobot, atheism was around for thousands of years, and it is even depicted in the Torah. This means that people were atheists long before any scientific research or any searches for evidence. Some people searched for the truth, and others created their own atheistic beliefs. Your beliefs are set in your mind and you are not searching for evidence. You have made up your mind before you even started to search. If you were a true skeptic you would not even believe in the worlds existence. You, however, would accept everything that the scientific community has to say. Did you ever see evidence for the atomic theory, or did you just believe that such an experiment took place? Did you see the evidence of the Big Bang or do you believe that the scientific experiments were done? Did you actually go digging for fossils, or do you believe the scientists with regard their locations? Did you ever do any carbon or other dating techniques, or do you rely on what you hear from the scientists that claimed to have done the experiment? Did you know that the Germans disregarded the Theory of Relativity because it was created by a Jew? How is that for bias. Do you really care about the truth or are you believing what fits your agenda? Are you digesting what I have written, or are you just looking for a retort?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 1:16 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 1:17 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 140 by bluescat48, posted 09-17-2008 1:39 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 138 of 213 (482604)
09-17-2008 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2008 1:00 AM


Re: Not a Real Skeptic
Catholic Scientist writes:
It and they could easily all be wrong.
This is the most classical mistake of all time. You did not think at all before writing this one. First of all, I have been showing in this thread that it is only through unjustified skepticism that someone can come up with a potential conspiracy theory for the existence of either the Torah or the Jews. Give it some real thought. There is absolutely no motive for anyone to have formed Judaism on their own. The claim is that 600,000 grown men heard G-d speak. The Jews accepted the most constricted lifestyle of all religions. There is no evidence at all to point to any other origin of the Torah or the Jews. The Jews have been persecuted in huge numbers throughout the years and they are still around today. The Torah says clearly that the Jews will always remain the chosen nation. The Torah challenges anyone to find another nation that has claimed to have heard the voice of G-d and lived to tell the story. No nation has ever made such a claim from the beginning of time until now. The Torah warns of the exile of the Jews, and that is exactly what happened. All of the curses have come true. The Torah tells of the coming of false prophets and gives signs of what they will be like, and this has happened as well. There is only one letter difference in any Torah in the world today. After all of the persecution, only one error was made. Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion in the world, and probably the oldest organized religion as well. When considering all the religions, try to be objective on this one. I would at least remove the word easily from your sentence there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 1:00 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 141 of 213 (482696)
09-17-2008 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Granny Magda
09-17-2008 1:17 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
I think my evidence was fine, and I seriously do not think you said any refutation. The existence of a world proves that there is a creator. This is very simple. It is called cause and effect. Most atheists think the logic of cause and effect does not happen in certain cases. There is, however no evidence for such a situation. Since there is always a cause behind every effect, the existence of the entire universe is evidence of the creator. You like any other atheist will ask: Who created this creator? But, that does not prove the evidence incorrect. A creation is evidence of a creator. No matter how sophisticated you become, you will be forced into the idea that the universe had a beginning and will have an end. The universe is not infinite, and time is not infinite. I realize that you have talked yourself out of this one already so I did not bother explaining myself. You can convince yourself of anything, but you must realize that your premise is that no god can exist. You are challenging others to bring evidence, but you have never tried to give an objective look at the situation.
My next proof was the conscious and free will. This is completely obvious. According to the physics of this world, free will is no more far fetched than the existence of a god. There is no evidence that free will exists and there is no logical way of explaining its existence. The problem is that everyone feels the free will. You have probably already disregarded this evidence with your bias mind, and asserted that you do not have free will at all. Also, the existence of a conscious being makes no sense at all in the scientific explanation of the universe. You are aware of your existence and you are having subjective experiences but none of the molecules in your body show any property that would cause such a phenomenon. In fact, such a thing is impossible to explain with the physics of this universe. You have probably already disregarded this evidence by proclaiming yourself a zombie. You may convince yourself that you are not really conscious. Go on convincing yourself.
With regard to the Torah, I have already said that 600,000 people accepted the Torah which claims that they all heard G-d speak to them, and they all survived. This claim was never made by any other nation of people. You have probably already asserted that it must be some sort of hoax. You are ignoring the evidence because you do not think it is possible for G-d to exist. There is no evidence that points to any other formulation of the Jewish religion. You of course will create some evidence that is not scientific at all. You may consider it to be a great conspiracy with no motive what so ever. You would be only fooling yourself. I could just as easily claim that all the 600,000 scientists are actually creating a hoax. You have never reproduced any of the breakthrough experiments. You are relying on other people’s word of mouth. Do you believe that men landed on the moon? Many people want to deny this one. They claim the whole thing is a hoax. Do you believe that terrorists were responsible for the destruction of the Twin Towers in New York City? Only 47 percent of the world thinks this so. Many think it was the U.S. Government or Israel. Do you believe that the Germans killed a massive amount of Jews during the Second World War? Many "historians" are trying to deny this one even though there are still thousands of eye witnesses around today. It is easy for an atheist to pretend to know about what happened in the world 4000 years ago if it will support his beliefs. Do you believe the scientists about what happened in the world BILLIONS or years ago. The scientists are taking a sample of at most 1000 years and they are using that to extrapolate about things that happened no less than 1,000,000,000 years ago. These same scientists cannot predict the weather in 1 year from now. I do not think these scientific extrapolations are statistically significant in any way. However, because you are an atheist and this information seems to agree with your beliefs, you are willing to accept everything accepted by the scientific community of atheists. Now you may understand why I did not answer any of your rhetorical questions. You are just giving me questions so you can be able to feed me the deception that your biased mind has formulated. Try to think in an objective manner. First think everything is possible. Then see what happens to your convoluted retorts.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 1:17 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Modulous, posted 09-17-2008 3:41 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 143 by bluescat48, posted 09-17-2008 3:51 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 144 by Rahvin, posted 09-17-2008 4:00 PM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 145 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 4:24 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 146 of 213 (482734)
09-17-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Granny Magda
09-17-2008 4:24 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
You did not surprise me with any of your answers. I hope you were not trying to. I believe with confidence that I will convince you of nothing. But, you have to admit that this is sort of fun (I am not trying to tell you what you are thinking with this comment; it is only sarcasm). Now I just want to clarify that just because a scientist will tell you that something acts in an illogical manner do not make it logical. An effect without a cause is not logical. The presents of something of this sort in nature would show a lack in the scientific theory, since it defies logic. Also, I know that the world is going to end for two reasons. One, it is part of the Jewish tradition. Two, it is the most widely accepted model for the fate of the Universe. Space is expanding at an increased rate, and entropy is increasing in the Universe. We are doomed no matter who you ask. The same applies to the proof of the beginning of the Universe. Both the Torah and the accepted model of physics hold of a beginning of the Universe. Also, I want to clarify. I meant to say that there is no evidence for any alterative mechanism for the formation of Judaism. You say it is possible that many things happen. But, no evidence exists for any of these claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 4:24 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 10:43 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 147 of 213 (482735)
09-17-2008 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Granny Magda
09-17-2008 4:24 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Please explain how free will happens? This one I must hear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 4:24 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 150 of 213 (482779)
09-17-2008 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Granny Magda
09-17-2008 10:43 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
I have a very good try coming right now. You have fallen into a very bad trap. I assumed that you were one of the clever deterministic atheists, and that is why I tried to give answers along your lines. I was giving you some seemingly valid arguments. However, you are now trapped. I was waiting for you to say this line:
Granny Magda writes:
You just don't get it. I have no idea how free will happens in the brain. I don't need to know the explanation for everything in order to know that it is real. I don't need to know how my computer works, to know that it does work.
You may regret this one. I can give you the same exact few sentences for my explanation of how G-d works. However, you will tell me that there is no evidence for G-d. However, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY "NO" EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF FREE WILL. You have asserted its existence with absolutely no evidence. And no evidence for such a thing has ever been presented. Furthermore, no evidence of such a thing can ever be presented. Free will is not scientific at all. You just happen to like the idea of free will so you think that it must exist. Think about what you are doing. If you get out of this one you will truly impress me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 10:43 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 151 of 213 (482780)
09-17-2008 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Agobot
09-17-2008 6:19 PM


Re: A plea
Agobot writes:
We have enough evidence to convince an unbiased and unprejudiced person that the existence of God is close to zero, but we don't have ENOUGH evidence to fill each and every gap in knowledge to which ClosedMInd will try to hold on and make an ill-supported case that will fit his beliefs.
You are funny. First of all, you are completely swayed by bias. Second of all, you have not presented a single shred of evidence to disprove the existence of G-d. All any atheist will ever say is that there is no evidence for a god. This does not make any evidence against a god. Third of all, there are many people in the world with more brains than you have, that continue to practice their religions. If you really had such a strong case, why are so many religious people so smart. I have already explained to you that atheism has been around for longer than you want to believe. If it was so clear to everyone else as it is to you, most of the major world religions would never have come into existence in the first place. Unfortunately, it is your bias and comfort that lead you to deny G-d, and not your brain. Show me an unbiased atheist and I will show you anything you wish for.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Agobot, posted 09-17-2008 6:19 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Agobot, posted 09-18-2008 7:19 AM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 159 by Agobot, posted 09-18-2008 10:40 AM Open MInd has replied
 Message 161 by Agobot, posted 09-18-2008 3:17 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 152 of 213 (482781)
09-18-2008 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Granny Magda
09-17-2008 10:43 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Granny Magda writes:
None of that matters though does it? Even if I were to accept your foolishness about cause and effect being essential and universal, that is still not evidence for God. There could be another cause. You need to provide specific evidence that allows us to differentiate between God and any other potential cause, something that you have monumentally failed to do.
You did not ask for a proof of G-d's existence. All you asked for was evidence. Therefore, I have told you that everything that exists in the world is evidence of G-d. Theoretically, if nothing existed than there would be no evidence of G-d. You have interpreted the evidence to mean something else. But, this does not change the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Granny Magda, posted 09-17-2008 10:43 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by bluescat48, posted 09-18-2008 5:54 AM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 160 by Granny Magda, posted 09-18-2008 3:11 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 153 of 213 (482783)
09-18-2008 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2008 2:26 AM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Unlike Christianity, there is no such thing as blind faith in Judaism. There is a commandment to actually know that G-d exists. G-d could not command anyone to believe that G-d exists. If the person believed already than such a command will be meaningless. But, if the person did not believe, he would not be able to actually listen to the command. A Christian with blind faith is almost as bad as an atheist. There is an obligation to know G-d, not just to believe that a god may hypothetically exist. The way to fulfill the commandment of knowing G-d is by removing as much bias from the mind as possible. This is done by not leading a ic life, and instead searching for the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 2:26 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by iano, posted 09-19-2008 8:59 AM Open MInd has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 154 of 213 (482785)
09-18-2008 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by bluescat48
09-17-2008 3:51 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
This is why I mentioned the Jewish people as evidence. The Jews have a tradition that dates all the way back to the 600,000 eye witnesses. You do not want to accept this as evidence. But, it actually is evidence none the less. I will tell you the same thing as I told Granny Magda, you are looking for evidence, not a mathematical proof. Evidence does exist, and I have presented it already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by bluescat48, posted 09-17-2008 3:51 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 155 of 213 (482787)
09-18-2008 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Modulous
09-17-2008 3:41 PM


Re: Actually Actually Getting Back On-Topic
The Jews are actually outside the Torah. There are 10,000,000 Jews today that claim the tradition of their fathers. Testimony is evidence as far as I am concerned. Other religions do not have such a testimony. You can still reject the evidence, but this does not stop it from continuing to be evidence.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Modulous, posted 09-17-2008 3:41 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Modulous, posted 09-18-2008 2:43 AM Open MInd has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024