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Author Topic:   Is my rock designed?
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 46 of 219 (485078)
10-04-2008 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Percy
09-27-2008 7:25 AM


Re: Intelligently copying the natural processes
Percy: We've seen this answer before, and of course it brings us to the ever-present ID dilemma about how we know what a designer did and didn't do. ID begins with the premise that there are certain things and processes (like life) that are too complex to have come about naturally, and that therefore could only have been the product of an intelligence. But this intelligence can obviously do much more than just the complex things. If he can do the complex, then obviously he can do the simple, too. If he can create the immensely complex bacterial flagellum, then he can obviously create the much simpler grain of sand.

So how do we tell what the designer did and didn't do?

TONY: God has all the time in the world. He can create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves - within the laws of physical matter, etc.

Man (life) is different. Sand is made from the erosion of rocks. Life is not. Rocks are not superhuman technology as is life. Matter could be referred as technology but not rocks in them selves. Rocks can occur naturally where as life can not. No one has done it or ever will without brains.

Cells create structure, and so it is not a natural process. Rocks become sand by many natural processes. Tested and proven.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 09-27-2008 7:25 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2008 3:12 AM Bio-molecularTony has responded
 Message 49 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2008 7:07 AM Bio-molecularTony has responded
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 10-05-2008 8:01 AM Bio-molecularTony has responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 47 of 219 (485079)
10-04-2008 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by bluegenes
09-27-2008 8:18 AM


God created the natural "process" for rock making..
bluegenes: [rocks] If it proves to have high information content, is that evidence of design?

I am not a young earth Christian. If they said God made every rock personally, I can only say sorry. People will do many things to support their beliefs. Evolutionists do it, Atheists do it too.

I believe God could of created every rock, but I believe he is smarter then that. He creates the natural "process" and time does the rest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by bluegenes, posted 09-27-2008 8:18 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 7:11 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 48 of 219 (485090)
10-05-2008 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bio-molecularTony
10-04-2008 10:10 PM


Unnatural? or just sloppy posting?
Bio-molecularTony writes:

Rocks can occur naturally where as life can not. No one has done it or ever will without brains.

It seems to me that bacteria are able to reproduce. Can you show me the 'brain' in a given sample of a species of bacteria?

Cells create structure, and so it is not a natural process.

My wife and I created a daughter who is made of cells. Are you saying we did this through some unnatural process?

Tested and proven.

I believe that reproduction indeed has been tested and proven as I not only have personal experience in this matter but also see the evidence virtually everywhere I look. So why do you consider it unnatural?

Edited by anglagard, : forget it, use new post


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-04-2008 10:10 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 7:57 PM anglagard has responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 49 of 219 (485099)
10-05-2008 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bio-molecularTony
10-04-2008 10:10 PM


Crystals Have Structure Too
Bio-molecularTony writes:

God has all the time in the world. He can create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves - within the laws of physical matter, etc.

Man (life) is different. Sand is made from the erosion of rocks. Life is not. Rocks are not superhuman technology as is life. Matter could be referred as technology but not rocks in them selves. Rocks can occur naturally where as life can not. No one has done it or ever will without brains.

Cells create structure, and so it is not a natural process. Rocks become sand by many natural processes. Tested and proven.

Pardon me for being a bit flippant before, but your posts beg some serious quote mining as they are not carefully constructed IMO.

Now as to cells creating structure and rocks not creating structure. While cells do have a complex structure, I think it is important to point out that 'rocks' are also structured according to the same rules of chemistry as cells, just on a more basic level. If you have ever viewed a rock under a microscope, you would notice that it is made up of crystals, which are quite 'structured.' In fact, one of the speculations concerning abiogenensis involves crystal structure imparting itself upon organic molecules due to electrostatic forces and therefore organizing such organic molecules into self-replicating precursors to what is commonly referred to as life.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-04-2008 10:10 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 8:21 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 50 of 219 (485107)
10-05-2008 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bio-molecularTony
10-04-2008 10:10 PM


Re: Intelligently copying the natural processes
I'll answer only the on-topic portion of your post (this topic is about a rock):

Bio-molecularTony writes:

TONY: God has all the time in the world. He can create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves - within the laws of physical matter, etc.

Intelligent design claims to be science, so instead of "God" you should be saying "intelligent designer", or just "designer" for short, otherwise people might begin to suspect you're doing religion instead of science.

So, yes, the designer could "create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves". The question is, did he, and what is the evidence supporting your answer to this question?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-04-2008 10:10 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 9:03 PM Percy has responded

    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 51 of 219 (485199)
10-06-2008 9:28 AM


Okay. ID doesn't seem to be of any use in this case. Lets try another appraoch, or another target.

I have picked up a battery. Its one of those 9V square ones. It still had some juice left, and I am currently using it in my multimeter.

So, can I use ID theory to figure out if it was designed or not?


Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 9:21 PM BVZ has responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 52 of 219 (485366)
10-07-2008 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Bio-molecularTony
10-04-2008 10:25 PM


If it talks, it has brains - Bacteria
It seems to me that bacteria are able to reproduce. Can you show me the 'brain' in a given sample of a species of bacteria?

TONY: bacteria talk and share information - quorum sensing.

Bacterial Quorum-Sensing Structure Solved
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/06/020627002638.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-04-2008 10:25 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 53 of 219 (485370)
10-07-2008 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by anglagard
10-05-2008 3:12 AM


Re: Unnatural? or just sloppy posting?
anglagard: My wife and I created a daughter who is made of cells. Are you saying we did this through some unnatural process?

TONY: Yes - you and your wife did nothing, no designing, no bio-technology engineering, structural construction, no communication on how to build a child even. It was all automation, out of your control.

So your body or even cells can automatically do these things, which you can't even begin to achieve. Where does this sub-level intelligence come from?

anglagard: I believe that reproduction indeed has been tested and proven as I not only have personal experience in this matter but also see the evidence virtually everywhere I look. So why do you consider it unnatural?
:rolleyes:

TONY: Rocks do not have the machinery to have babies, but you do, just not the intelligence to consciously create one. DNA automation is the intelligence built into your sub-level systems - which you know nothing about or how they work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2008 3:12 AM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by anglagard, posted 10-08-2008 1:39 AM Bio-molecularTony has responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 54 of 219 (485372)
10-07-2008 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by anglagard
10-05-2008 7:07 AM


Without mechanical technologies
anglagard: Now as to cells creating structure and rocks not creating structure. While cells do have a complex structure, I think it is important to point out that 'rocks' are also structured according to the same rules of chemistry as cells, just on a more basic level. If you have ever viewed a rock under a microscope, you would notice that it is made up of crystals, which are quite 'structured.' In fact, one of the speculations concerning abiogenensis involves crystal structure imparting itself upon organic molecules due to electrostatic forces and therefore organizing such organic molecules into self-replicating precursors to what is commonly referred to as life.

TONY: All chemistry is the same and organic molecules are nothing but carbon atoms being use with others. There are NO LIVING MOLECULES, no living matter, no "living cells". It is just bio-machinery - masterfully designed into one unit we call the "cell".

Rocks are without technology or mechanical designs. It might be called "crushed matter" as in the bible, with no purpose or function. Just a lump of raw matter, unformed, no designs, no technologies used.

Crystals have no mechanical technologies, like rocks, with no higher purpose, or function too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2008 7:07 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 55 of 219 (485375)
10-07-2008 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
10-05-2008 8:01 AM


Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Percy: So, yes, the designer could "create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves". The question is, did he, and what is the evidence supporting your answer to this question?

TONY: The big mystery is just that... what things did God hand make and what other things are a result of the complex "processes" he designed and put in place.

That I am still sorting out in my own head, and so is all mankind.

What bits I do know is there are layers of complex structure making up our universe (physical reality).

When we get to rocks we find a fork in the road of upper complexity.
Rocks are not more complex then sandy beaches, mountains, seas, etc.

So-called "Life" is the next level as it were for further structural design complexity. Life is really an illusion of bio-technology. Nothing made of atoms is really alive in it's self. It is just designed to look as if alive or living. Rocks are without this kind of design or this level of complexity.

The same could be said with my car. It is not without higher levels of complexity over and above the base natural processes put in place by the universal designer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 10-05-2008 8:01 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by anglagard, posted 10-08-2008 1:51 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 10-08-2008 8:49 AM Bio-molecularTony has responded

    
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 56 of 219 (485377)
10-07-2008 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by BVZ
10-06-2008 9:28 AM


Batteries will naturally go dead - Rock never die
So, can I use ID theory to figure out if it was designed or not?

Though "nature hates a vacuum (or a charge)". There seams to be this chemical cycle which "living" system use. You may find pockets of chemicals that have potential energy if they came in contact with other chemical. But in a local area for the most part everything has no charge or potential.

Batteries will naturally go dead - for there are not "closed systems" in nature (Lot2).
So to find such a charged Battery would be “made” that way.
Lemons are batteries too, but they too are made that way – genetically designed and built intelligently.

Rocks have no change and no chemical potential cycle to speak of.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by BVZ, posted 10-06-2008 9:28 AM BVZ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by anglagard, posted 10-08-2008 2:22 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded
 Message 60 by BVZ, posted 10-08-2008 3:51 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 57 of 219 (485393)
10-08-2008 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Bio-molecularTony
10-07-2008 7:57 PM


Re: Unnatural? or just sloppy posting?
Bio-molecularTony writes:

DNA automation is the intelligence built into your sub-level systems - which you know nothing about or how they work.

Please feel free to elaborate. Are you saying that such "DNA automation" is inherently unknowable or are you claiming to be the judge of what I personally do or do not know?


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 7:57 PM Bio-molecularTony has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-08-2008 6:54 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 58 of 219 (485395)
10-08-2008 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Bio-molecularTony
10-07-2008 9:03 PM


Re: Designer Hand made VS Designed processes
Bio-molecularTony writes:

When we get to rocks we find a fork in the road of upper complexity.
Rocks are not more complex then sandy beaches, mountains, seas, etc.

How is a crystal more disordered than a sandy beach? What is your definition of complexity? Does complexity mean disorder or order?

Please feel free to define your terms.

So far, I see a lot of pronouncements without any evidence or indeed much examination or clarity.

For example:

Life is really an illusion of bio-technology.

What does that mean? life is an illusion as taught in some parts of Buddhism or Hinduism? we live in the matrix? The definition of life is fuzzy? The definition of life is limited to what a bio-technologist would say?

Please consider being more precise in your statements by using examples of what you mean.

Edited by anglagard, : add all after feel free to define your terms


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 9:03 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 59 of 219 (485399)
10-08-2008 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Bio-molecularTony
10-07-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Batteries will naturally go dead - Rock never die
Bio-molecularTony writes:

Though "nature hates a vacuum (or a charge)". There seams to be this chemical cycle which "living" system use. You may find pockets of chemicals that have potential energy if they came in contact with other chemical. But in a local area for the most part everything has no charge or potential.

Batteries will naturally go dead - for there are not "closed systems" in nature (Lot2).
So to find such a charged Battery would be “made” that way.
Lemons are batteries too, but they too are made that way – genetically designed and built intelligently.Rocks have no change and no chemical potential cycle to speak of.

Presuming you mean 'charge' instead of 'change' the statement "Rocks have no change {sic - charge} and no chemical potential cycle to speak of" is false.

Piezoelectricity

Well Logging

Electrical Resistivity Tomography

Of course if you really meant "rocks have no change" then that statement is even more absurd.

Just to let you know for reasons of disclosure, I have taken several university classes that covered the latter two links.

Edited by anglagard, : make it clear I am dealing with last sentence

Edited by anglagard, : more precise last link and commentary

Edited by anglagard, : add 'taken' before university in last sentence for reasons of clarity


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 9:21 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 60 of 219 (485400)
10-08-2008 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Bio-molecularTony
10-07-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Batteries will naturally go dead - Rock never die
Though "nature hates a vacuum (or a charge)". There seams to be this chemical cycle which "living" system use. You may find pockets of chemicals that have potential energy if they came in contact with other chemical. But in a local area for the most part everything has no charge or potential.

Batteries will naturally go dead - for there are not "closed systems" in nature (Lot2).
So to find such a charged Battery would be “made” that way.
Lemons are batteries too, but they too are made that way – genetically designed and built intelligently.

Rocks have no change and no chemical potential cycle to speak of.

Okay... thats all very interesting. But you did not answer the question. How can I use ID theory to figure out if it is designed or not. Note, I am not asking you to make an educated guess here. I am specifically asking you to use the techniques ID theory prescribes you should use, to figure out if the battery is designed or not.

Can you use ID theory please?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-07-2008 9:21 PM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
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