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Author Topic:   What is design? Can we not find evidence of design on earth or in the universe?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 115 of 185 (486572)
10-22-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Agobot
10-22-2008 1:12 PM


Re: A sampling of their Answers
Agobot writes:
I wish money would start self-creating itself, it would be fun, right?
Fun? That would destroy the ENTIRE economy, since money would become worthless.
And I don't see how a universe creating itself points to a designer.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Agobot, posted 10-22-2008 1:12 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Agobot, posted 10-22-2008 5:20 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 117 of 185 (486583)
10-22-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Agobot
10-22-2008 5:20 PM


Re: A sampling of their Answers
Agobot writes:
You've just said - "And I don't see how a pool of energy creating itself into a universe and life points to a designer".
When you think of universe and life, have a look around your room. What a wonderful coincidence that energy managed to turn itself into a house for your 100 trillion cells human body by chance. What a wonderful coincidence that energy can create a mother and father for you. What a wonderful coincidence that energy created a planet for you that could sustain your existence. What a great coincidence that energy managed to turn itself into computers that we can use to communicate over the internet. But wait - what are you? If you know the answer to this question, you've unlocked all the mysteries.
I'm not sure I'm following you, if it created ITSELF, there is no outside creator, now is there. Unless you're meaning the universe itself is the creator.
As to what I am, I'd say nothing more then a collection of atoms and energy. I don't feel particularly enlightened by that though. There are still enough mysteries left for me.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Agobot, posted 10-22-2008 5:20 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Agobot, posted 10-22-2008 6:09 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 130 of 185 (486656)
10-23-2008 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Agobot
10-23-2008 12:31 PM


Re: Atheism
It hurts your feelings but the universe's existence is based on laws and rules and they can be described logically(there is inherent intellect that we can understand). This made Einstein say:
"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible"
BTW nonsense is the belief in miracles as well as the belief that your interpretation of the current scientific level of knowledge states that there is no god.
Agobot, stop using the argument from authority.
And it doesn't hurt my feelings that the universe is based on a set of laws. The current scientific knowledge DOES NOT state there is no god.
Edited by Huntard, : Spellings

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Agobot, posted 10-23-2008 12:31 PM Agobot has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 133 of 185 (486664)
10-23-2008 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by NOT JULIUS
10-23-2008 1:16 PM


Re: The Difference between Design and Designoid
Doubting Too writes:
Ok, then. Just this one. I promise I won't reply anymore...unless you TEMPT me again :=) ( How do I get that smiley thingy?)
Alright, let's see if I can then (to get that smiley thingy, simply leave out the = it should then look like this )
Check this article: IsThere Scientific Evidence for Existence of God?
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9403/evidence.html
This guy just outdid me! I was just trying to prove there is Purpose of the exact distance, the condition on earth, etc blah... blah.
In so many words--mostly technical--he offers proof of design. IMO, he differentiated "designoid", as in that JFK shadow in a mountain in Hawaii ( sounds your pothole, eh) and "designed" ( the Mt Rushmore, thingy).
Here is a portion of his treatise if you kinda lazy to go over the 26 pages of discussion.
As I said before I won't debate links, it's against the forum rules. I will comment on the piece of text you quoted though.
Dr. W. Bradley writes:
To summarize, for life to exist, we need an orderly (and by implication, intelligible) universe. Order at many different levels is required.
Problem right there. How does he know that? He could be very wrong, we only have one universe to study. In a different universe, chaotic perhaps, how is he to know there could not be life?
For instance, to have planets that circle their stars, we need Newtonian mechanics operating in a three-dimensional universe.
Newton's been outdone by Einstein some 100 years ago.
For there to be multiple stable elements of the periodic table to provide a sufficient variety of atomic "building blocks" for life, we need atomic structure to be constrained by the laws of quantum mechanics.
In a different universe, the building blocks for life could very well be different to ours.
We further need the orderliness in chemical reactions that is the consequence of Boltzmann's equation for the second law of thermodynamics.
In a different universe there might very well be different laws of thermodynamics.
And for an energy source like the sun to transfer its life-giving energy to a habitat like Earth, we require the laws of electromagnetic radiation that Maxwell described.
In a different universe...etc. Are we beginning to see a pattern yet?
Our universe is indeed orderly, and in precisely the way necessary for it to serve as a suitable habitat for life.
That's another mistake, which I think was pointed out in the beginning of this thread. Life on Earth fits so perfectly because it evolved to fit the conditions of the Earth, not the other way around.
The wonderful internal ordering of the cosmos is matched only by its extraordinary economy. Each one of the fundamental laws of nature is essential to life itself.
To this my response is the same as to the very first line I quoted:
How does he know that? He could be very wrong, we only have one universe to study. In a different universe, chaotic perhaps, how is he to know there could not be life?
A universe lacking any of the laws shown in Table 1 would almost certainly be a universe without life.
Again, how does he know?
Many modern scientists, like the mathematicians centuries before them, have been awestruck by the evidence for intelligent design implicit in nature's mathematical harmony and the internal consistency of the laws of nature.
And a great many more say there is no such evidence AT ALL.
Australian astrophysicist Paul Davies writes:
All the evidence so far indicates that many complex structures depend most delicately on the existing form of these laws.
Of course, they evolved to fit those rules.
It is tempting to believe, therefore, that a complex universe will emerge only if the laws of physics are very close to what they are.
Bolding mine.
Again, he BELIEVES this. As a matter of fact, the way this quote is put, it makes me think he is actually going to say: "But of course, that is not the case".
The laws, which enable the universe to come into being spontaneously, seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design.
Again, bolding mine.
This sounds again like he is going to say: "But of course, that is not the case".
If physics is the product of design, the universe must have a purpose, and the evidence of modern physics suggests strongly to me that the purpose include us
Yes, IF it is the product of design. However NOWHERE have they shown this to be the case.
Doubting Too writes:
Yes, Huntard and I included. Common, friend, capitulate... so I can give you my blessing.
Pls. don't point out "argument by authority" or something. Courts do that. You and I do that, although may be unconsciously, for where did we get our "knowledge" of things but from authorities like teachers, etc?
Common, say: P3 is valid! Message 35
I think I have avoided telling you the authority thingy. I think however, that you'll find me unconvinced after reading my comments. Your blessings though, are always welcome.
Edited by Huntard, : edited in link to message 35

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by NOT JULIUS, posted 10-23-2008 1:16 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by NOT JULIUS, posted 10-23-2008 2:07 PM Huntard has not replied

  
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