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Author Topic:   What is design? Can we not find evidence of design on earth or in the universe?
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 144 of 185 (486777)
10-24-2008 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Straggler
10-24-2008 1:07 PM


Re: A sampling of their Answers
Yes, I am incredulous towards coherent physical laws that could construct a universe forming for no reason.
Straggler writes:
And your assessment of the probability of this universe existing is nothing more than crazed speculation.
Yes, it is. The chance for the universe to form by chance with thousands of physical laws forming also by chance, and all this mess to become a universe that could exists for 13 700 000 000 years and harbour life for 4 000 000 000 years that will become the consciousness and eyes of the universe is 1:10^infinity.
Straggler writes:
Maybe it was inevitable rather than improbable.
On what basis can you really claim to know otherwise?
What would make it inevitable? The physical laws + the energy? I totally agree, under such conditions a universe that could support intelligent life is inevitable. Now where did those laws come from? Why do opposite electrical charges attract and like charges repel? So that the universe could exist? I don't see any other way to answer that question, so it would be a Yes.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2008 1:07 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2008 5:54 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 146 of 185 (486780)
10-24-2008 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 1:35 PM


Re: Atheism
Agobot writes:
This is ultimately wrong. Our intelligence is a reflection of the inherent intelligence of the universe.
Wat? The inherent intelligence of the universe? So the universe is intelligent because we are? And the universe would be intelligent regardless of humanity exist or not because the universe has intelligent laws I suppose? Bahahhhaahawwahha!!
Yes, the laws of the universe is what formed a guy like you who makes stupid statements. You think you made yourself from nothing? Think again. You are a product of matter/energy BY THOSE SAME LAWS of the universe that reflect high levels of intelligence. Intelligence you'll never comprehend. Typical atheist arrogant bullshit. You are simply an extremely sophisticated cloud of positively and negatively charged energy, that asserts it came into being by chance. And i get the feeling that, in your case, you might be right.
Agobot writes:
We don't invent intelligence, we discover it.
Some never do.
I am sure you are talking about yourself.
Agobot writes:
Like Faraday discovered that moving a magnet over a metal wire induces electrons in the wire, so is every other discovery mankind has ever made. I can't stress it enough, we don't invent, we DISCOVER that certain things are possible, that they had existed from the beginning of the universe(like electricity that mankind hadn't previously been aware of). All we are doing is discovering those possibilities and "features" of matter.
I agree about the scientific discovery...but disagree it is anything other than human intelligence that is responsible for the discovery and knowlege gained. A snowflake is a amazing crystaline structure. But it is not intelligent.
Human intelligence would not be possible if there were no intelligently made physical laws that govern the universe to allow us to understand our realm of existence. We still don't understand it, it's only the layman that has understood it and declared that there is no creator.
Agobot writes:
All these were possible because of the inherent characteristic of matter, they are what they are whether we are here or not, but they are our OUR TRUE LIMIT of intelligence and development. This is the only thing that might hinder us from becoming gods, the inherent intelligence of the universe. If we reach a level where no new discoveries are possible although we've understood the universe, and we are still not close to being able to transcend our existence into a new timeless immaterial form, then that will be the limit. We will not become gods
All these things are possible because of the intelligence of humanity to manipulate matter to suit his needs. From shard of flint to a fine clovis point. From sand to glass, it is mans intelligence that discovers the principals and properties of matter in order to use them for his purpose.
We discover what is already there in terms of inherent properties laid down by physical laws that have NO origin, and what is already there is perplexing to anyone but a stubborn atheist who thinks he knows all the answers to conclude there is no god/creator. Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are still completely in the dark ages when it comes to our existence, the forming of life, the forming of the universe, energy turning to matter and consciousness, etc. But if you know all these answers, good for you. HAHA
Agobot writes:
All these discoveries were possible because of the inherent characteristic of matter, they are what they are whether we are here or not, but they are our OUR TRUE LIMIT of intelligence and development. This is the only thing that might hinder us from becoming gods, the inherent intelligence of the universe. If we reach a level where no new discoveries are possible although we've understood the universe, and we are still not close to being able to transcend our existence into a new timeless immaterial form, then that will be the limit. We will not become gods.
Wat?
I didn't expect you to understand this bit.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 1:35 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 3:16 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 148 of 185 (486794)
10-24-2008 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 3:16 PM


Re: Atheism
Agobot writes:
Yes, the laws of the universe is what formed a guy like you who makes stupid statements. You think you made yourself from nothing?
No I did not make myself. I am a product of the same stuff that composes the periodic table of elements.
But you are fighting successfully the second law of thermodynamics. Doesn't it surprise you? There is much much more to you than a combination of atoms. You are the consciouness and eyes of the universe, you are the representation and manifestation of the laws of physics that allowed your emergence and that constructed the universe from energy. NOTHING is as simple as it seems to the casual onlooker.
Agobot writes:
Think again. You are a product of matter/energy BY THOSE SAME LAWS of the universe that reflect high levels of intelligence.
Umm your doing it again, assigning intelligence to the universe.
Let's call it elegant, coherent physical laws then. They both refer to the same thing though.
I only comprehend the necessity you have to attribute "intelligence" to the universe in order to assert there is a intelligent law maker that created it. This is fine to believe, but does not mean it is so.
Things may just simply be the way they are just because. I like the third grader comparison you made. Children most often cut through alot of the stupidity some adults tend to come up with.
So baisaclly you are saying - everything is as it is, for no reason. Although it's orderly and follows physical laws. Does this make sense to you?
Agobot writes:
You are simply an extremely sophisticated cloud of positively and negatively charged energy, that asserts it came into being by chance. And i get the feeling that, in your case, you might be right.
Hmmm extremely sophisticated, I like that. Coming into existance by chance. Oh come now you know that is not so, I was planned by the creator that eventually the atoms that compose me would be used to let me type these words. BahHhwahhwwwaahhhaa!!!
It's not funny at all. That's what you are - a collection of atoms that types messages. What is so funny about it? And how does whatever you believe in, tie with this fact of life?
Agobot writes:
Human intelligence would not be possible if there were no intelligently made physical laws that govern the universe to allow us to understand our realm of existence.
And you know this to be true because?...because it just has to be that way. because?
It's called the Cause and Effect principle. The cause and effect principle holds everywhere in our classical realm of existence because it's based and follows the laws of physics inherent in the universe. Some elegant examples that rule our world and that act on the Cause and Effect principle:
Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
To quote Einstein "Nothing happens until it moves"
These are laws that we have found to be existing independent of us. We have found them and we based our intelligence and logic on them, by conforming to them and learning to put them to our use. This is what human logic is - it's conforming to the laws of physics. If you think otherwise, go accelerate your car to 250km/h and try to stop in 20 metres, you'll see that your logic and common sense is nothing else but the limitations placed by those same laws.
If you want to believe the Universe is intelligent because it uses intelligent laws that were created by a Intelligent being. And...that humanity may someday obtain God status, except that the limiting factor will be the universe itself. More power to you. I for one do not. This does not make me a atheist. It simply makes me a doubter kooky ideas.
OK, don't believe anything. The part that stated that we might become gods is derived from the book "physics of the impossible" by prof. Michio Kaku. My controversial statement that we might one day be able to transcend our physical form of existence stems from most scientists believing that in the future teleportation would be possible. It would take a bit more than that to transcend our physical existence for at least certain amount of time. That's my imagination based on other theoretical scientists predictions, that's why i am not pushing this idea. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't pay attention to it.
You certainly came out as an atheist in our argument - you stated several times that things exist because they exist(although there is a great paradox with the physical laws that allowed the universe to form and exist for as long as 13.7 billion years). If you are not so confident about atheism, that's a good sign. My aim is not to make anyone believe in the existence of a higher intelligence and a superplan but to let everyone know that science does not say there is no god. Science simply says the biblical god and genesis is an imaginary construct. Nothing more and nothing less.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 3:16 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 8:42 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 150 of 185 (486797)
10-24-2008 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by onifre
10-24-2008 5:01 PM


Re: Atheism
onifre writes:
Or we'll rise up and find out that there is no such force, or harmony, at least not an intelligent one. Then we may realize the true nature of existance, namely that it is meaningless.
Hi onifre,
Please use your imagination and whatever beliefs you hold to finish the sequence:
First RNA --> Single cell organism --> Multicellular organism --> Fish --> Reptile --> Mammal --> Ape --> Hominid --> Homo sapiens --> ...
Where are we headed? What does this sequence look like? To me it looks like a path to somewhere.
Everyone else, feel free to participate. Take into account that our bodies will evolve in a few hundred thousand years because of the changing life style. Finish the sequence in terms of million of years, take your wildest guess(while being rational ).
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 5:01 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by bluescat48, posted 10-24-2008 5:56 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 153 of 185 (486806)
10-24-2008 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by onifre
10-24-2008 5:01 PM


Re: Atheism
onifre writes:
Or we'll rise up and find out that there is no such force, or harmony, at least not an intelligent one. Then we may realize the true nature of existance, namely that it is meaningless.
Let's assume for the moment that the paradox with the physical laws did not exist. Why would there be something instead of nothing? No reason? Isn't this type of resoning the same as the god of the gaps - i.e. you don't know yet and you attribute to it no purpose?
BTW i get a very creepy feeling when i tie the zero energy universe with the law of conservation of energy.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 5:01 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 6:51 PM Agobot has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 154 of 185 (486808)
10-24-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Straggler
10-24-2008 5:54 PM


Re: A sampling of their Answers
Straggler writes:
You no more know that the universe is an improbable possibility than an inevitable certainty.
You assert a probability. Where do you get your figures from? How do you know any of the answers that would be required in order to calcualte such a probability?
Without the physical laws the probability is zero. How would you construct matter if opposite charges did not attract and like charges did not repel? How do you think this might be possible?
What meaning do you attribute to "inevitability"? Inevitability resulting from what for example?

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2008 5:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2008 6:32 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 157 of 185 (486821)
10-24-2008 6:53 PM


My logic, (it can be flawed although it's the same logic that Michio Kaku, Einstein and Hawking apply), is that we are a very very special manifestation of the universe. We are conscious, I don't think most of the atheists quite understand what this means and entails. We are the eyes and consciousness of the universe. The universe has started revealing itself to us by creating us, it's revealing its secrets(how it started, how it proceeded, how it might proceed). All this is possible because the universe is so far comprehensible to us, who are the eyes of the uinverse(the laws that drive the universe are comprehensible). To me we being a tiny transient manifestation of the universe that could read its secrets is magical and magnificient. We are special, think about it... we are the only ones who know the universe exists. The universe is our mother(it created us and it nursed us with its resources on earth), and it has been revealing its secrets to its children for a few millenia. I am not pushing the idea proposed by some scientists that the universe is alive in some sense, but merely stating that we being the eyes and consciousness of the immaterial universe, have a very peculiar relation with it.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 7:12 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 158 of 185 (486823)
10-24-2008 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straggler
10-24-2008 6:32 PM


Re: A sampling of their Answers
Straggler writes:
Inevitability potentially resulting from the same unknowns from which you conclude deep improbability.
I am not basing my statements on the unknown, but on the known laws of physics. They are here and they are a fact of life. Why they are here is a philosophical question and i can't seem to find any other answer but design by a greater intelligence. If i do find a more relevant answer, i'll let you know. But keep in mind that my concept of god is what you might call later a natural phenomenon. It's just that this thing has much much greater intelligence than us, it might be aliens, and aliens are natural right?

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2008 6:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Straggler, posted 10-26-2008 11:33 AM Agobot has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 164 of 185 (486859)
10-25-2008 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 8:42 PM


Re: Atheism
1.61... writes:
As far as I know the known atoms that the body of science has thus far identified are what are charted on the periodic table. Those are the atoms the universe is composed of as well. If you have knowlege of more types of atoms please share with me what they are.
I am not aware of anything else but those 117 atoms. However I am aware that you are not a meaningless combination of atoms. You say it's natural, because that suits your belief and you want to wave off the question why we are fighting entropy. By the same token, i can label my idea of the creator as natural - it's a miracle but it's natural. How do you deal with such methods of reasoning?
BTW we need to establish what we consider a natural cause? Does miracle constitute natural cause? Is the singularity natural? Is the earth natural, considering that it's nothing but 100% empty space? What exactly is "natural" outside of our silly debate where everyone is twisting science to suit his beliefs?
1.61.. writes:
I am indeed concious, and I do have eyes. And although I do agree that if one where to think of the universe as a collective conciousness then yes your statement of me being the eyes and conciousness of the universe would hold some validity. However, I am simply a collection of atoms and universal forces (there are but 4 we know of). As is everything that exist in the cosmos. And try as I might, I can not accept that just because it gives one a warm fuzzy feeling of certainty that it all might just be arbitrary. At least I have the intellectual fortitude and honesty to consider that dreaded possibilty.
It's not the warm feeling that makes for the appearance of a higher entity. When the top scientists of our time start talking about a creator(Charles Darwin inlclusive) , you can be 100% sure that it has nothing to do with warm feelings and desires.
Agobot writes:
Although it's orderly and follows physical laws. Does this make sense to you?
1.61... writes:
those apparent orderly physical laws contain strange quirkyness that is not orderly in the least but caotic and random in some instances. Wave functions and fields propagate in a apparent determnistic fashion. But the uncertainty principal still prevades. And any moment Cave Diver and Son of Goku will be chiming in. But I still contend that stoichiastic randomness is a element of nature. The math can get you there and thats all that counts...pun intended.
What does the quantum world have to do with life and consciousness?
We know too little of it and what we know is that life arises and takes place at a much higher level than QM. And talking about wave functions requires that you mention on which of the interpretations you are basing your assumptions. We still don't know if the apperant randomness in the quantum world has any effect on our classical world. AFAIK, the scientific community is split on the issue. My favourite is the many worlds model - which solves the issue in a very bizarre way: nature is deterministic, and all outcomes actually happen in parallel and you observe just one of them (and the randomness is now replaced with which one you are going to observe, of which many world views have no deeper explanation - so at this point there is indeed something fundamentally random, but it is not in the workings of nature, but in the nature of your subjective observation - i.e. that it's random).
Agobot writes:
It's called the Cause and Effect principle. The cause and effect principle holds everywhere in our classical realm of existence because it's based and follows the laws of physics inherent in the universe. Some elegant examples that rule our world and that act on the Cause and Effect principle:
1.61... writes:
Thomas Aquinas very elegantly argued the Proofs of God and the Prime Mover et al... does not hold water. Cause and effect does not hold water. I challenge you to explain how you can conclude based on just your observations how a cause effects another. You can only assume and conclude there is a relationship. You can not KNOW because you are dependant on your own perceptions and are a part of the system that is doing the observing. Yes common sense and physics etc.. tells us if you push a domino over it will cause the next one to fall. But you can not KNOW it will. Even if you do it a million times you still can not know the millonth and one time if will cause the others to fall. Mathmatically any possible outcomes can occur. All our calculations and knowlege must approximate. Initial conditions can not be duplicated to the exact degree. And the Uncertainty principal will not allow 100 percent accuracy. Reality refuses to be pinned down.
Yes it's called aproximation, nothing is 100% guaranteed. But you are riding planes, right? I am sure you are aware that our classical reality can be pinned down to 99.99%. Yes the earth can disappear tomorrow morning, there is some statistical chance for that arising from some law or effect that we have not yet discovered. And still we are progressing because we count on that 99.99% certainty of outcomes. We even went ahead and called these principles laws and we live by them just like the whole 13.7 billion year universe.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 8:42 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by 1.61803, posted 10-25-2008 12:40 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 165 of 185 (486862)
10-25-2008 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 9:59 PM


Re: Atheism
1.61... writes:
How we define conciousness may differ, but I am of the opinion that my dog is concious. My birds are concious as well, I am almost sure there are other organisms that are concious. Conciousness is not confined to humans in my opinion, but rather a emergent property of the brain. I could of course be wrong. It seems to me once a organism begins to interact with it's environment it exhibits varying levels of conciousness. There is some point I think where instinct and chemistry overidden and the organism makes a choice in how to respond, react to external stimulius. This would be concious behavior I think.
But they are not conscious of the fact that they exist only in the form of a force that's spread out over a certain volume of 100% empty space. Are they aware that what they are is pure magic? Are they aware that what they are is just + and - and how mind boggling our existence is?

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 9:59 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 166 of 185 (486863)
10-25-2008 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by onifre
10-24-2008 7:12 PM


onifre writes:
Yes, thats all great to think about, but it was not its purpose. If it was its purpose then the universe would have needed to guild every step of the evolutionary process that lead to us. If the huge asteroid(or whatever it was) that struck the Earth 65Mya doesn't hit, the dinos continue their dominance, and man never comes to be. So we are lucky to be here, witnessing life from a conscous PoV, we are lucky to be able to study the universe, we are lucky to have adapted intelligence that helps us do this, we are lucky that no other cosmic event has whipped us out...shit we are lucky an asteroid hit Earth and killed off the other dominant species. Simply put, we are lucky that the random events that lead to our emergence from the trees took place, and yes its really fuckin cool to be able to step back and stare at our mother universe in wonder, but not in arogance like we deserve this. We got lucky, yay us!
That's what it looks like, but i don't subscribe to it. Maybe the creators left everything to chance after setting the initial conditions and laws, like Stephen Hawking suggests. Or maybe as Einstein says - coincidence is how god remains anonymous. How else would you explain energy turning to consciousness that's aware of the presence of energy that forms other consciousness continuously? Natural process? Then what would be supernatural? Is there such a thing at all? If we go down this path, it might turn out that what i consider a higher intelligence(or god for short) is quite natural to you, sitting somewhere and calculating what laws would allow the universe to unfold and support conscious life. The fact that we have been able to continuously progress is very puzzling as well. We came to being and we saw that S=v.t, but why is it so? What laid down those laws that we could discover and put to good use? How would we progress and develop intelligence and consciousness if there were no inherent laws for us to discover?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 7:12 PM onifre has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 167 of 185 (486865)
10-25-2008 6:12 AM


Just so we can have more creationist on this debate, would my idea of transcending our physical existence mean a death to you? Can consciousness be reduced to digital information - 0 and 1's? Do you feel a digital copy of you will be different to you, considering that the theists believe in the existence of the soul?
Would a theist ever allow to be teleported? Could the soul be teleported and represented digitally?
I can see theists rejecting being teleported in the future based on their belief in the soul.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 168 of 185 (486868)
10-25-2008 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by onifre
10-24-2008 11:39 PM


Re: Atheism
I've just thanked the universe for having the physical laws it has, that allowed the emergence of such great beer as Heineken. Thank you Universe and singuarity! HAHA
Edit: But we humans are an integral part of the singularity, so whom are we thanking really? The nothingness?
Hey God, why did you create such a mess?
Onifre asking the same question - Hey natural process, why did you create such a mess?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 11:39 PM onifre has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 171 of 185 (486908)
10-25-2008 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by 1.61803
10-25-2008 12:40 PM


Re: Atheism
1.61... writes:
Everything that exist in nature is natural as far as I am concerned. Because if it exist in our universe then how can it be otherwise?
Something that exist outside our cosmos is supernatural, and who knows maybe such things exist, but if it does exist outside the cosmos how are we able to decern it? Primitive man once thought many things where supernatural. Fire, Lightening etc.
Everything that exists in nature is a very vague definition. If you read on some forum that there is another earth with dinosaurs would it be natural? Would an invisible object be natural?
1.61... writes:
The Earth is natural. It is composed of atoms as well and has mass and gravity and is not empty space. If you believe the Earth is nothing but empty space fine, but your wrong. Look up the Higgs field and Higgs boson to find out why things obtain mass.
Who has seen a higgs boson? God?
You have no idea how wrong you are on earth being not empty space. Do you know what gives matter the impression of solidness? Judging by your response I think you don't. When you find that out, you may start to see why the brightest minds like einsten, hawking, schrodinger, m.kaku, etc. atart talking about god.
What has mass got to do with solidness?? Have you seen E=mc^2? Does energy have mass?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by 1.61803, posted 10-25-2008 12:40 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by 1.61803, posted 10-25-2008 9:00 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 173 of 185 (486948)
10-26-2008 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by 1.61803
10-25-2008 9:00 PM


Re: Atheism
Agobot writes:
Everything that exists in nature is a very vague definition. If you read on some forum that there is another earth with dinosaurs would it be natural? Would an invisible object be natural?
1.61... writes:
I thought I had responded adequatley to this. So I will simply say I think that the universe is a natural process.
Then what is a natural process? Is consciousness arising from energy a natural process?
Agobot writes:
another earth with dinosaurs would it be natural?
1.61... writes:
And if another planet supports other life that will be natural as well since it is occuring in our cosmos. Everything that exist is part of the cosmos.
I was talking about another earth that you cannot see that might still be full of dinosaurs that we have decohered from 65 mln. years ago. You don't even understand what i am saying, because you try to use everyday common sense where common sense is irrelevant and you are lagging behind the findings of modern physics.
Agobot writes:
You have no idea how wrong you are on earth being not empty space. Do you know what gives matter the impression of solidness?
1.61... writes:
I thought that the temperature and energy states of atoms was responsible for which state matter takes..gas,solid, liquid, plasma.
And then of course gravity. I thought it was the Higgs field allows for matter to clump allowing for things to be things. Do you have some more recent information?
You have no idea what you're talking about. And you clearly don't have any idea what matter is. Do you think it's a coincidence that only you of all the users on EvC, have issues with matter being 100% empty space? Do you think no one else is reading this thread? Or you think everyone else is plain stupid and they take for granted everything is say?
Agobot writes:
When you find that out, you may start to see why the brightest minds like einsten, hawking, schrodinger, m.kaku, etc. atart talking about god.
1.61... writes:
All athiest, if you are arguing from authority at least find some belivers.
Einstein atheist? Have you seen the quotes in my sig? This isn't the humour thread.
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views" -A.Einstein
If you claim Einstein was an atheist toward the god of the bible, he was. But we are all atheists then, since there are 34 000 religions with different gods and we no one believes in all those 34 000 gods at the same time. I'll take what you said above as a refreshing joke.
I suggest you do your homework on M.Kaku, S.Hawking, etc. before you start your humourous claims on god.
1.61... writes:
What has mass got to do with solidness?? Have you seen E=mc^2? Does energy have mass?
1.61... writes:
Energy is the radiation emitted when mass is converted to energy using the c2 conversion factor in special relativity equations, whether it be relativistic or total energy being describe. So energy as photons have no mass. So what, the only time that formula is cranked for real is in singularitys,the center of stars, and nuclear reactors and weapons.
What are you talking about?? I asked you a very simple question - Does energy have mass? If you can't answer this, don't pretend you know what you're talking about.
If you have been into this shit a long time, why did you claim this:
"If you believe the Earth is nothing but empty space fine, but your wrong."
Were you joking when you made that claim that i was wrong? Do you think this is the humour thread? Or are you joking now when you claim:
"I have been looking into this shit a long time dude"
What is so funny about holding conflicting opinions?
1.61... writes:
Let me guess, you think because matter on a quantum level is really nothing then our existence is dependant on God.
What is it dependent upon? Your common sense? How does your everyday logic and common sense explain positive and negative charges turning to consciousness? I have a feeling your answer to this will put the final touches of a very hilarious thread.
Agobot writes:
Who has seen a higgs boson? God?
1.61... writes:
?
Are you coming from the future via a time machine? Because if you are not, your claims are hilarious.
Also, do you know why the Higgs boson is dubbed the God partilce?
Nobel laureate Leon Lederman labeled it the theoretical boson "the God particle" years ago because its discovery could unify understanding of particle physics and help humans "know the mind of God." And when world famous physicists start talking of God, they are not talking of the God of the church(whether it's big or small as you say- HAHA).
1.61... writes:
If your gonna have a God, have a big one.
HAHA
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein
"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by 1.61803, posted 10-25-2008 9:00 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by 1.61803, posted 10-26-2008 10:23 AM Agobot has replied

  
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