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Author Topic:   Logical Proof of Existence of a Divine Creator, Why Atheism is Not Logically Sound
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 90 of 175 (487822)
11-05-2008 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Greatest I am
11-03-2008 10:41 AM


My definition of God does not include miracle worker.
We can change definitions for God all we want but eventually it will lead to a philosophical ideology rather than a religious ideology. At that point it would not be a creation vs science debate, it would be philosophy vs science debate, which seems rather pointless since philosophy has never contradicted the BB, evolution, abiogenesis etc...
Furthermore what type of definition for God is there other than what is founded in scriptures?
If it did I would have to consider God immoral for holding back and not stepping up.
On what basis do you find God to be moral in the first place?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Greatest I am, posted 11-03-2008 10:41 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Greatest I am, posted 11-05-2008 9:34 PM onifre has replied
 Message 96 by Dr Jack, posted 11-06-2008 12:03 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 97 of 175 (487886)
11-06-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dr Jack
11-06-2008 12:03 PM


Hi Mr Jack
That acquired through personal revelation and meditation, and group discussion.
That doesn't seem like a definition. It seems like a collection of subjective experiences. How do you or anyone else know that it has anything to do with God? How would you reference a God in those cases?
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dr Jack, posted 11-06-2008 12:03 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Dr Jack, posted 11-12-2008 8:49 AM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 98 of 175 (487889)
11-06-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Greatest I am
11-05-2008 9:34 PM


The God of the literal Bible is a genocidal maniac. The Bible may help lead some to God but to read it literally shows a God that must hate men. He kills us often enough.
This seems like a very self centered attitude. Assuming there is a God for the purpose of this discussion, God has clearly hated other animals much, much more than man. Just ask the 99% of all species that are extinct, wouldn't you think their opinion of God would be very low since God let them go extinct? At least we are still around reproducing. So what if a few are lost, how many more are born?
If we went extinct then you'd have something to be upset about, but it doesn't seem likely anytime soon so the human race is favored, for the time being.
God is real bit not the loser of scripture.
Real how? In what sense is he real?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Greatest I am, posted 11-05-2008 9:34 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Greatest I am, posted 11-06-2008 6:05 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 104 of 175 (487947)
11-06-2008 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Greatest I am
11-06-2008 6:05 PM


Hi GIA,
Animals do not speak.
Humans do, we are an animal, so your statement should read "Not all animals speak".
Let’s get that straight. Snakes do not talk and fish do not spit out men after three days.
If you are talking about the stories in the Bible, about the Garden and Jonah, I can stop you there and tell you I don't really care. I didn't mention any of that nor did I reference it. But, I agree that snakes and fish don't do any of that.
Lower animals have no quarrel with God.
How do you know that? Thats an assertion. Again for the purpose of this thread I am assuming God exists. How would you personally know who God is quarreling with?
He did not genocide their ass. He did ours.
What genocide are you refering to? And humans are not extict, we are here so if he did genocide or asses, it was only to a select few.
We are the ones God should say He is sorry to if you want to believe in the genocidal maniac.
I don't believe in any of that, so lets get past you telling me this. But, if God did genocide a few people, who are you to judge his actions? It was done long before you were around, maybe he had problems with these select few, who are you to tell him what he can and cannot do? And besides we believe in government don't we, whos more genocidal than them?
Thank God it does not end here or all of us would be disappointed at death.
How do you know that?
God is a cosmic conscience. Our next evolution.
So you believe in God? And you pass judgement on someone elses belief in God? Wow that takes the cake!
Yeah, everyone knows unicorns exist but I believe they are white, when the idiots believe they are pink...dumb idiots believing in a pink unicorn!

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Greatest I am, posted 11-06-2008 6:05 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Greatest I am, posted 11-06-2008 9:44 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 110 of 175 (488001)
11-07-2008 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Greatest I am
11-06-2008 9:44 PM


As to other animals, God does not quarrel with meat.
Again, you are making assertions. How do you know that he does not quarrel with 'meat'?
A select few? Does Noah ring a bell.
No.
Millions dead including innocent children and babies.
God kept a select few to fuck things up again and drowned the rest.
A poor farmer indeed to sow so many and reap so few.
Oh, that Noah. Wait are you reading the Bible literally or not? Pick a side man.
Should man judge God? Yes.
Who else can?
Man can judge a stroy to be ridiculous, boring, stupid, nonsensical etc, but, to judge God you would need to know for certain that God exists, and is the type of entity that can be judged. Since there is no way of knowing that, your statement is nonsensical. See, I can judge you though.
I had the pleasure and pain of the one contact with God. He is a cosmic conscience.
So, you had a spiritual experience and you created your own version of God? You are no better than the people who wrote the Bible that you claim were wrong in what they wrote. They had a spiritual experience and wrote about it, you had one too and are writing about it here, what makes you any better? Why should your subjective experience be worth more than someone elses?
I do not judge belief. I only judge Gods. There are many of each.
Thats not what I said, and you are judging beliefs in God. You claim superiority in your belief and in your God. This is religious arrogance, the same that is shown by the very fundamentalist that you ridicule so much. You just do it at a more toned down level. But you are showing arrogance in your belief in God.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Greatest I am, posted 11-06-2008 9:44 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Greatest I am, posted 11-07-2008 1:40 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 120 of 175 (488104)
11-07-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Greatest I am
11-07-2008 1:40 PM


I judged your other comments to not be worthy of thought.
Did you really?
Firstly, I cannot judge anyone's beliefs.
Stay focused, you did pass judgment on not only the people who wrote the Bible, but on those who read it literally. It is their belief that it must be done this way. If you say they are wrong and you are right in the way you believe, then you have passed judgement on their process of belief. So, admit to passing judgement and move on from it.
There is nothing wrong with well placed arrogance. Mine is not based on a talking snake so I resent the association.
Then don't associate yourself with people of faith. You placed yourself in their company by being a person who believes in God. No matter what version you've made up for yourself. You have faith, they have faith, you are BOTH people of faith. You are associated by default.
Yours may be based on your version but, since you can't provide evidence for your version being any more real than their version, you both are equally believers in a faith based belief system. Neither better than the other.
My God is not superior to the miracle making God. He is just real.
In what sense? Where is he located so that I may see him? Don't say I have to experience him because I hate to burst your bubble but, thats what the people who believe in the talking snake God say too. You are both equally placing faith in your versions of God.
I just have the update.
Oh, so you have the God 10.0 version.
My experience in speaking to God is no better than anyone else's. There are just very few of us who have.
I have. Have you? Who then should teach who?
I have had spiritual experiences but I don't attribute it to a God. It was a subjective experience, period.
I suggest you don't teach anyone anything 'cause you are clearly talking shit at this point.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Greatest I am, posted 11-07-2008 1:40 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Greatest I am, posted 11-08-2008 8:59 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 142 of 175 (488464)
11-11-2008 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Greatest I am
11-08-2008 8:59 AM


Lets have the story.
Story? Or a discription of my experience?
If its a story you want, I don't have it, but I can describe what happened, without going too off topic.
I was trying DMT(Dimethyltryptamine ), I had an out of body experience where I could literally look back at myself and view myself as if it was reality. I mean absolutely no difference than me staring at my laptop right now. Reality as anyone would describe it. I was however, able to levitate off the ground and go around me sitting in a chair, remember as if it were reality, and I walked around the house I was in, which was my first time in that house and yet I knew where to go throughout the house. When I came to I was able to describe the house perfectly, we were writing everything down, in detail.
Since then I have had a few dreams where I've been able to do the same thing. Twice was in a hotel and I stilll knew where to go when I walked. No drugs. Total 5 times, including the DMT experience.
No God, no nothing.
If my brain has that type of power, to create that type of reality or perseption of reality, then it can create gods, heavens, afterlives, etc, etc. It's how you view it subjectively that is the problem. Once you start to believe that these alternate realities are real, you are not viewing it objectively and lose credibility in having evidence for that reality. At that point it can be taken as a figment of your reality, but not necessarily the true reality.
But, then again, what is the true reality? If we just experience this reality subjectively then reality is a subjective thing. So, I guess whatever you want to conclude that your reality is IS real, for you. So enjoy.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Greatest I am, posted 11-08-2008 8:59 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-13-2008 11:22 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 145 of 175 (488656)
11-14-2008 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Dawn Bertot
11-13-2008 11:22 PM


Hi Bertot,
LOL. As I suspected in my discourses with you, your are one tripped out freaky dude Homespun.
Really, thanks, I thought of myself as pretty boring for the most part. You may have a misconception about me though. The experience described above was not some "crazy party", it was a weekend meditation retreat that ended with(optional) a DMT trip. It was supposed to be a test of what you learned throughout the weekend about meditation, and about controling dreams and your imagination.
And how do we corroborate any of these other assertions other than your testimony.
Thats my whole point, we can't, nor can we accept anybody elses assertions when it comes to experiences in which they believe they spoke to, what they describe to be, God.
Were you drunk before you got to this party and forgot that you had traversed the house to possibly to take a wiz bang, eh?
I leave that kind of behavior to frat-guys. The type of behaviour you are describing gives drugs, and experienced users, a bad name. Extacy(MDMA ) was prescribed by marraige councelors, untill, young repressed idoits started to abuse it as a form of rebellion from, probably, conservative up-tight Christian parents or just plain ole overly conservative parents, and now the drug not the idiodic abuser is considered bad. I don't condon that type of adolencent behaviour, nor do I associate with that type of user. I recognize that drugs can be quite harmful, but in the hands of experienced, responsable users, it can be a very unique and wonderful experience into a new reality...if just for a little while.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-13-2008 11:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Coyote, posted 11-14-2008 1:34 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 147 of 175 (488662)
11-14-2008 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Coyote
11-14-2008 1:34 PM


Re: Entheogens
Hi Coyote,
John M. Allegro even theorized that it was used in early Christianity in his book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (of which I have a wonderful first edition in mint condition).
I have read and enjoyed that book very much. Take care of that early edition. Pretty cool.
(His book met with a somewhat poor reception in some quarters, however.)
Just as medicinal marijuana, or extacy for counceling, or shrooms for neuro-problems, is meet with poor reception. People hear someone takes drugs and they make the same mistake Bertot did, which is to assume that it was done in a abusive way.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Coyote, posted 11-14-2008 1:34 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 11-21-2008 7:16 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 151 of 175 (489166)
11-24-2008 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by jaywill
11-21-2008 7:16 AM


Re: Entheogens
Hi jaywill,
If you are experimenting wih drugs you would be well advized not to. You could end up dead. You could end up insane.
Thanks for the advise.
However, I doubt very much that pot will kill me or make me insane...maybe fat and lazy but certainly not dead.
He tells you that this pill is thus and such.
This isn't the Matrix, furthermore, you place more faith in what your government tells you about prescription drugs?
How about you do a bit of research, find out how many deaths due to legally prescribed drugs there are versus marijuana. You may be shocked at the outcome.
Poping a mind altering pill or mushroom recreationally is one of the dumber things a person can do in life these days.
I can think of many, many other things that are dumber. Like voting for Bush twice, how many made that mistake? How many deaths throughout the world has that caused? Putting things into perspective maybe a better approach for you than just assuming drugs are bad.
There are many things that are bad, drugs fall way down on the importance ladder, IMO.
Prayer and opening one's heart to Jesus Christ is infinitely superior to psychodelic trip.
Then you sir have never had a psychodelic trip lol.
Again, thanks for the advise.
Oni

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 11-21-2008 7:16 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-25-2008 12:20 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 153 of 175 (489237)
11-25-2008 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Dawn Bertot
11-25-2008 12:20 PM


Re: Entheogens
It is truely amazing how blind liberals like yourself are to the real world.
Do you enjoy spouting out cliche bullshit? Do you have any opinions that you've formulated on your own or do you just repeat crap you hear on tv?
Who said I was a liberal? Better yet, what is a liberal*?
Do you mean liberal as described by FoxNews, or as described by other media sources?
You live in the protection of others sacrifice, then complain about thier methods and gifts. Pathetic.
Whats pathetic is that you stole this statement from the movie A Few Good Men. Jack Nicholson did a better job at delivering that line by the way...man, you really are one pathetic puppet.
Or we can just stick our heads in the ground and pretend it doesnt really exist, correct.
No, your right, what we should do is just attack at will. We should just give any president full right to do whatever he pleases and bomb any and all countries that he says is a threat. You should just turn on the tv and listen, pay attention and do as you're told. Don't form any of your own opinions, don't try to ask any questions, leave the responsible people to decide your future and the path your life should take for you. Just sit there and be a well behaved sheep.
Or, you can just stick your head in a hole and pretend they're not really trying to do that to you.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-25-2008 12:20 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-26-2008 9:22 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 159 of 175 (489338)
11-26-2008 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dawn Bertot
11-26-2008 9:22 AM


Re: Entheogens
Hi Bertote,
Most liberals want to enjoy the protection they live in and complain about the people (Bush) that only have thier best interest in heart.
It's nice to the the programing of American minds actually work. You are a poster child for the system of persuasion. But, hey, thats your option, right? Just go back to sleep, your government is control.
The well behaved sheep actually exercised thier right to think when they elect the President, congress, House ans Senate, so this part of your statement is nonsense. The well behaved sheep of the past understood checks and balances, which estalished this system, its not perfect but better than dictatorship.
A well behaved sheep is a well behaved sheep, don't try and spin it another way. You march to the beat of one drum and follow the opinions of others. But, again, if thats what you prefer, then enjoy.
In the mean time junior atleast try and find some support for the leaders you chose and quit admittedly breaking laws with your pot and illegal drugs.
I don't recognize the leadership of this country, don't try to present it to me as some moral institution that merits respect. It is a corrupt system lead by wealthy corporations, its not the type of leadership this country was originally constructed to have. But, it's funny that you say I should support it, because I joined the service after highschool to do just that. However, my job was not to defend the government, my job was to defend the citizens of this country. The government however, decides to uses the bodies of fit young men and women to defend it's actions, which is wrong in every sense of the way, thus the reason I choose to leave the service, and currently don't respect the government in power.
It wasnt a party the same way pornography is art and not filth, correct?
Pornography is art and not filth the same way every commercial on tv that objectifies women is considered art and not filth. Lets not be hypocritical. If Pepsi can sell a soda with half naked women on a commercial during the Super Bowl, the porn industry can do as they please since they don't advertise their product to children.
Now dont get mad and no apologies are necessary, just respond with a rational argument, because we are all adults here.
Apologies...? For what?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-26-2008 9:22 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-27-2008 2:18 AM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 168 of 175 (489500)
11-27-2008 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by bluescat48
11-27-2008 8:22 AM


Re: Entheogens
Hi bluecat,
Cuba
Cuba has terrorist?
I was not aware of that, do you have info on that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by bluescat48, posted 11-27-2008 8:22 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by bluescat48, posted 11-27-2008 11:18 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 170 of 175 (489563)
11-28-2008 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by bluescat48
11-27-2008 11:18 PM


Re: Entheogens
Try Castro
I know his history quite well. Why would you consider Castro a terrorist?
I fully understand if you called him a worthless dictator or a mass murderer, but I don't see how you get terrorist.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by bluescat48, posted 11-27-2008 11:18 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2008 12:49 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 173 of 175 (489609)
11-28-2008 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by bluescat48
11-28-2008 12:49 PM


Re: Entheogens
I am in no way supporting Castro, being that both my parents fled Cuba I understand the issue and have always hated him for what he did to my family during the revolution. But...
they invoke terror by such things as killing any one who can possibly harm them whether real or imagined,
By those standards the US is a terrorist nation too. Along with Israel and Europe, wouldn't you agree?
I mean as far as invoking terror on other countries, no one does that better than the US, Israel and Europe. If we are taking it to the degree of a Hitler or Pol Pot.
However, Castro is nowhere near the threat that Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, or for that matter, the US, are. The Castro government was lucky to be associated with Russia during the Cold War, thats what saved Castro then. Now a days it's not the same country. In fact 80% of the citizens are pro Castro. The poor of the country benefited from the revolution and now pretty much populate the entire country, those with money came here to Miami and began their lives all over again.
One other benefit to Castro is that Cuba has nothing of interest to the US, therefore Castro cannot threaten our economy in any way, so why bother with him?
I will agree that he was a ruthless dictator, of course educated in the US, but, now a days the Castro government is more show than anything else. It's in place because no one cares about the citizens of Cuba and because Cuba is of no financial value to the US, so they're not worth saving. But, I cannot see how you can equate him as a terrorist without calling the US, Israel and Europe terrorist who pose a bigger threat on humanity than the island 90 miles from the Florida Keys.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2008 12:49 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2008 4:36 PM onifre has not replied

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