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Author Topic:   God and Satan
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 110 (490806)
12-08-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by caldron68
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


Resistance Builds Character
caldron68 writes:
The topic up for discussion is God and Satan. Specifically, why did God create Satan and more generally, why does God allow Satan to influence man on Earth?
1) God never actually created an evil Satan. God created an Angelic Lucifer who desired to fall away.
The way I see it, Satan is the temperer, much as steel is formed from iron being tempered. Just as muscles become stronger by working against resistance, human character becomes stronger by working against Satans wiles.
I believe that God has foreknowledge and that yes, God did foreknow that Lucifer would become Satan and that humans themselves would be exposed to evil as well as good.
To me, this is not that big of a problem. How would our character ever be allowed to grow were it not exposed to challenge?
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 110 (490809)
12-08-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by DevilsAdvocate
12-08-2008 5:03 PM


Re: Re God and devil
first of all, as I said before, God did not create an evil Satan. Satan chose evil. Perhaps we could ask God why evil was allowed to exist, however.
But lets take your daughter analogy a step further. Say that you, as a Father, could control your daughters environment and exposure to outside influences. Would it be more humane for you to keep her on the family farm her whole life where she was never exposed to manipulative boyfriends, crazy city nightlife, and a competitive job market?
The answer is no, you would allow her to be exposed to the harshness of the world...trusting that she would be equipped to deal with the challenge and adversities to be encountered.
Perhaps God feels the same way in allowing His creation to experience evil as well as good influences.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 110 (701628)
06-22-2013 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ICANT
12-10-2008 12:25 PM


Re: Re God and devil
ICant writes:
God created everything that there is.
Before He did that He viewed the end and decided the project was worth the cost.
He tells us in Isaiah:
55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Now what you are asking me to do is reveal the mind of God to you.
Give you answers to questions that He does not give a clear answer too.
Since God's thoughts and mine differ so much I feel a little inadequate to the task but I will give you what I believe, from my 60 years of studying and walking with God.
In all my life I have never met a person that did not want to be loved for who they are.
Since man is created in the image of God I will assume He has that desire also.
The only way that can be accomplished is if the one doing the loving is free to love by choice.
God created beings, creatures that worship Him constantly. Rev. 7:15.
God created the devil and his angels to give man a choice.
God created man and placed him in a paradise and gave him a choice.
Man could choose to live and walk and talk with God or choose to disobey and be separated from God and die.
That man chose to eat the fruit and die with his wife rather than to live in the garden with the serpent and be able to walk and talk with God.
Making it possible for billions of humans to be able to choose to love God and serve Him just because He is God.
That also made it possible for you to not believe in God and worship Him and serve Him.
But now that man was separated from God there needed to be a way man could be restored to fellowship with God.
God provided the way a man could receive a full pardon and be restored to fellowship.
All a person has to do is accept God's provisions.
So to answer your personal question, "Why create that choice?"
So Straggler could have a choice of believing in and trusting God.
Or,
So Straggler could choose to believe there is no God.
I agree with most of what you say,I Cant...except that I believe that God initially created the possibility of evil and that Lucifer freely chose rebellion(made possible only because God provided a choice) and chose to become evil. Lucifer chose initially to actualize potentialized evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2008 12:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 110 (776199)
01-10-2016 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICANT
06-22-2013 7:10 PM


Re: Re God and devil
ICANT writes:
Now as to God creating the possibility of evil.
quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
That verse says God created evil. It does not say He created the possibility of evil. Satan is the personification of evil.
So where do you get that God created the possibility of evil from?
Did Lucifer have a choice not to rebel?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 110 (776256)
01-11-2016 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
01-10-2016 9:16 AM


Re: Re God and devil
im just using common sense. We have no evidence for any of this stuff.
Even with the scriptures you have quoted in the past, there is little common sense that God is "both good and evil" ie complete....that flies in the face of logic.
A "good" God makes more sense. Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness.
Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 01-10-2016 9:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-11-2016 9:56 AM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 110 (776412)
01-12-2016 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
01-11-2016 9:56 AM


Old Friends
I recently had an interesting conversation with an old friend of mine who studies Torah.(He is Jewish)
It surprised me to learn that he thinks a lot like you do, jar and tells me that he believes that God is a bit as Spinoza describes Him..Pantheistically...and he also says that there is logically not a personal God. If anything, he described God as a synthesis of infinity and zero. Odd that he would leave One out of the equation.
My point is that any of the really deep thinkers whom I have talked to insist that IF God exists, the only evidence would be shown by our behavior as humans...regardless of what our beliefs were on the matter.
Do you mean it ruins what YOU want?
In a sense, yes. I have to admit that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-11-2016 9:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 01-12-2016 8:12 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 110 (776422)
01-13-2016 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
01-12-2016 8:12 PM


Re: Old Friends
How does the God you created compare to those others?
Well, I argued that God is personal. He replied that a personal God is akin to Santa Claus. (Where have I heard that, before? )
My friend DID state that he still prays, though he acknowledges it as a probable placebo.
I replied that prayer is for our benefit and not Gods, should God exist.
Whether one prays to God or only to their own conscience really doesnt affect the outcome. After all, even if i believe that God exists, is personal, and hears all prayers why would He treat believers any differently?
As for satan, satan is only as harmful as we make him out to be.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 01-12-2016 8:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 01-13-2016 10:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 110 (776423)
01-13-2016 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
12-08-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Re God and devil
The prince is still in charge. So he has not been demoted from his job.
In my conversation, I touched upon the idea that God prefers us to manage evil rather than exist without it for some mysterious reason. Its a bit like lifting weights...strength increases through overcoming resistance. Evil is the necessary resistance to strengthen human character.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 1:42 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 110 (776478)
01-14-2016 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
01-13-2016 10:44 AM


Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
do you believe that these Gods were entirely the authors inventions or do you believe that the authors at least thought that they had encountered these Gods in the course of their lives? The difference being that one is entirely made up and the other is reported.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 01-13-2016 10:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 01-14-2016 9:51 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 110 (790680)
09-03-2016 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
01-14-2016 9:51 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
So it is entirely possible that we misunderstand the message.
You may argue that while many Biblical Christians expect (and perhaps want) God to again send His son and to intervene in fallible humanity to forever right the wrong,
this is a global cop out.
Do you believe that God as you understand Him wants us to learn to ride the bike without falling over?
And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 110 (791413)
09-15-2016 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hawkins
09-14-2016 2:13 PM


Word Salad with Dressing
I believe that angels were given limited free will in that once they freely decided what to believe they could not change their mind.
I believe that humanity is at 0 and that God is 1 and that only through Jesus can people make the leap from 0 to 1.
In essence, God sent 1 to 0 to make 0=1. Sounds silly, I know.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 110 (791492)
09-16-2016 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by frako
09-16-2016 7:34 AM


Whoppers
sounds like quite a fish story. The bad guy becomes the good guy while the good guy is really the bad guy.... Ringo agrees with you. He thinks satan got a bad rap.
Jar thinks satan is simply a tool and has no real power. Which sounds like something a bad guy may want you to believe... oh well

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

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 Message 92 by frako, posted 09-16-2016 7:34 AM frako has not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 110 (791494)
09-16-2016 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
01-10-2016 9:16 AM


Re: Re God and devil
jar writes:
What is your evidence that Lucifer did rebel?
Do you still base your theology on a fiction written in the 1600s?
Do you understand that that fiction directly contradicts what the Bible actually says?
Mark Twain wrote fiction and yet some call it scripture.
Perhaps it is wise to base our theology on more than just what the Bible says.
I have no evidence. All that I have is belief.
You and I see GOD differently and we also see satan differently.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 01-10-2016 9:16 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 110 (791495)
09-16-2016 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
01-11-2016 9:56 AM


Re: Re God and devil
Phat writes:
Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.
jar writes:
Do you mean it ruins what YOU want?
I could say that an unknowable GOD, a Jesus who is simply human, and a belief based on personal responsibility fueled by what WE do rather than what HE does (or did) is what YOU want.
Is it not logical that everyones beliefs are based on what THEY want?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-11-2016 9:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 09-16-2016 8:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 110 (791584)
09-17-2016 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
09-16-2016 8:58 AM


The Story Is Important
jar writes:
So men created the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and Ra and Apollo and Jesus and Satan and Thor and Coyote and Ganesha and Brahma and Raven and Jupiter and Zeus and all the other Gods and gods and demigods and demiurges and trolls and fairies and leprechauns.
Perhaps that is what the evidence shows.
I disagree with it, however. I know too many people who are strong believers and, yes, who have read the Bible. They have come to a different conclusion than you have.
Take this verse in Matthew.
Matt 11:25-27 writes:
25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
You may well argue that Jesus was a character that humans made up. The character does appear to know His Father, however.
In fact, if I back up a bit, Jesus was addressing the cities where miracles had been performed and was denouncing them for not repenting. In essence He was saying that had they repented (I know...had they been more responsible ) there would have been greater miracles done in them.
It seems to me that we could argue that the Jesus "character" wanted folks to be more responsible toward each other---which lends support to your Greatest Commandment..Part II being the crux of what Christianity should mean.
I would argue that Part I is something we can do...just as Jesus did. He talked with God, and so can we. You have a pretty good argument that Part II is all we can do to achieve Part I.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 09-16-2016 8:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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