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Author Topic:   God and Satan
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 1 of 110 (490731)
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


Sorry if this subject has come up before, but since it keeps coming around in small batches in other threads, I thought I would centralize the topic and get a focused discussion going.
The topic up for discussion is God and Satan. Specifically, why did God create Satan and more generally, why does God allow Satan to influence man on Earth?
To get things going, here are two links from where I found the biblical facts that follow:
The Origin of Satan Lucifer Devil bible genesis why did God made make Satan devil Lucifer
Bible Study – Christian Education Resource
Both of these sites have God creating Satan as Lucifer, promoting Lucifer to a position of power and then Lucifer himself creating Satan. And this is where the discussion needs to begin. There are just way too many problems with this scenario considering all of the attributes that have been assigned to God and to Heaven in general:
1) God is omniscient, but can't see that Lucifer will eventually become Satan.
2) Heaven is, well.... Heaven, right? From the stories presented through the links posted above, what we have is a primadonna who eventually develops a problem with the power hierarchy in Heaven and decides that he should have equal power.
So, the problems here are, God is supposed to be Omniscient, but yet does not know that Satan will turn out to be such a little devil, and second, but maybe more important, Heaven is not all it is cracked up to be. Obviously things like envy, greed and hate are also attributes of those beings that occupy Heaven. How can this be? haven't we always been told that Heaven is, well.... Heaven, right? This is the place where all the good people are supposed to go and drink milk and honey and never ever experience a bad day for the rest of eternity, right?
Well, given the story of Satan then none of this is true. Obviously there is a power structure in Heaven other then that of just the head dude in charge. Not only that, but heavenly beings actually have the ability to get pissed off, in heaven no less!!!!!
What do these things say about God and Heaven?
Cheers,
--Caldron68

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by bluescat48, posted 12-08-2008 10:27 AM caldron68 has not replied
 Message 4 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 12:09 PM caldron68 has replied
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 1:42 PM caldron68 has replied
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-08-2008 6:02 PM caldron68 has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 14 of 110 (490819)
12-08-2008 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate
12-08-2008 7:20 PM


Re: Re God and devil
quote:
Except that was not the case with Adam and Eve. They had no exposure to evil. They were innocent in a similar manner in which a small child who has not matured or been exposed to the big wide world. Small children do not fully understand the difference between right and wrong. In fact they have to be indocrtrinated with this sense of right and wrong. According, to the Bible it wasn't until Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Good and Evil that they understood the consequences of their actions (the difference between good and evil and its consequences).
Ah, but this is eactly why I started this thread. Adam and Eve would have eventually discovered evil all by themselves. Satan was not a required factor in this equation. Evil did not come into existence with the creation of Lucifer, or Lucifers mutation from choir boy to super human evil doer. Free will alone is enough to allow man to do the wrong things, to get into trouble, to make mistakes, to learn from his experiences. No devil is required. So to say that Adam and Eve had no exposure to evil is incorrect. Given enough time, they would have gotten into plenty of trouble. Just as the child is told not to play with matches, but goes ahead anyway and either creates a house fire or simply burns a few fingers, a lesson is learned and knowledge of good vs. bad is established.
God told Adam and Eve not to eat from a specific tree, but they did anyway. Considering that Adam and Eve were like children at that point in time, was it the right thing to do to unleash hell on Earth? Kick the children out of the garden, condemn every single human from that point on to carry the burden for this transgression? I mean really, God just didn't punish Adam and Eve with a little slap on the wrist. He changed the very foundation of their existance.
I also want to address some of the previous comments that have been made, but I'll refrain from doing that in this particular response and perhaps start another one.
Cheers,
Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-08-2008 7:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 16 of 110 (490822)
12-08-2008 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Bailey
12-08-2008 12:09 PM


Re: misinformation ... the breakfast of confusion
quote:
Not knowing and not nippin' it in the bud are not equivocal - lol.
The God likely knew.
Yet, being limited by motivating impulses of Love, how can He behave?
The God does not pick on the handi cap; how can Love even find a fault?
The God can only turn His other cheek, and allow division to divide itself.
He will Love when, while another gets stepped down, One gets stepped up.
The God does not abide in every corner of His omnipotence, and this is how we may know ...
The God knows when man has reached the age of accountability, as He loses sight of the man.
That He cannot, then, generously provide saddens the all powerful God; yet, it is an ordinance, whereby, He abides.
This implies, the God does not see a man once he has reached the age of accountability.
The God desires the man to respond so He may further employ His Love.
The God will generously provide when the voice of the man is heard, as this too is an ordinance, whereby, He abides.
There is no evidence what will occur if Adam hides and does not answer.
Only that he will live when he exposes himself and responds.
Well, I guess this is one of those areas where I have always disagreed with the Bible. If all of God's actions are driven by love, then why are some of his actions so incredibly cruel? Two scenarios come to mind immediately. The great flood and God's treatment of the Amalekites in 1 Sam 15:2-3. First, the flood. God created the entire universe by simply speaking the word, but is required to murder an untold number of innocent peopled (women, children) in order to change mans course of action. Second, the destruction of the Amakekites. God orders Saul to put to the sword every single Amalekite man, woman, child, goat and cow. These actions do not instill in me a sense of 'love' in any way, shape or form. These actions are down right cruel and capricious. Did God really have to tell Saul to kill the children?
No, to me there is no love in these actions. If God was unhappy with the way man was turning out, he should have fixed things right off the bat. Who was the audience for this action, who was being taught a 'lesson' in all of this? Noah? Was he the prime audience for all of this violence? Did Noah not see the dead bodies floating in the water. The men, women and children floating dead and bloated in the water? If I had seen something like this and could attribute it all to one man, the thought of love for this man/being would be the last thing on my mind.
Gee God, wasn't that a little harsh? Couldn't you just blink all the bad people away and still start over with Noah and his sons? Did he really have to destroy the planet?
By the way, God has promised to do it all again, this time with fire, the next time he sets foot on the planet.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 12:09 PM Bailey has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 17 of 110 (490823)
12-08-2008 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
12-08-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Re God and devil
quote:
Wrong.
All of those who are born again and their names written in the Lamb's book of Life is going to spend eternity in the New Heaven and New Earth spoken of in Revelation 21:
Well, I've read Revelations and it is no treatise on God's love. There are those on this board who just can't wait for this particular prophesy to be fulfilled. Yeahhh!!! Wahooo! Jesus is coming back to Earth. WOOO HOOOO! Unfortunately, 2/3 thirds of you are not going to survive the event. Oh and it's not just man that's gonna get whacked, no God's gonna burn the forests, turn the sun black (or is it blood red), poison the oceans and unleash torture on all those sinners before he kills them!! Really!! torture! Well that's just great. I can just feel the love in that written word. mmmmmmmm.
Now, about the new Heaven and the new Earth. God knows all of this is going to transpire, but yet allows it all to happen. Seems like the long way around to get to the place where you wanted to be in the first place.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 1:42 PM ICANT has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 27 of 110 (491126)
12-11-2008 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Bailey
12-08-2008 10:50 PM


Re: When all is One
Bailey writes:
caldron68 writes:
Two scenarios come to mind immediately. The great flood and God's treatment of the Amalekites in 1 Sam 15:2-3. First, the flood. God created the entire universe by simply speaking the word, but is required to murder an untold number of innocent peopled (women, children) in order to change mans course of action. Second, the destruction of the Amakekites. God orders Saul to put to the sword every single Amalekite man, woman, child, goat and cow. These actions do not instill in me a sense of 'love' in any way, shape or form. These actions are down right cruel and capricious. Did God really have to tell Saul to kill the children?
Doubtful.
Doubtful? It's in the book Bailey. The book is God's inspired word, no? Are you privy to information that the rest of us don't have? Information that allows you to overlook the bad and accept only the good?
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, ”I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 ”Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” (1 Samuel 15:2-3).
This is fairly clear. Kill them all is the message here. How do you get from this to the word 'doubtful', as in it's doubtful that he said that, when I ask why God had to instruct Saul to kill the children?
Bailey writes:
The deluge was going to happen whether people were around or not.
Much like the fires in Cali and earthquakes worldwide.
Huh? The flood was going to happen anyway? That's not what it says in the book.
5 And Yahweh saw that man's wickedness was great over the face of the earth, and that all day the thoughts in his heart formed nothing but wickedness.
6 And Yahweh regretted having made man on the face of the earth, and his heart grieved.
7 And Yahweh said, "I will wipe man from the face of the earth, man, my own creation and also the animals of the field, and the creatures that crawl on the ground, and the birds of the air; for I regret having made them." (Genesis 6:5-7}
I've seen this before. You've become so indoctrinated in the message of love, you can't see the forest for the trees. You're deflecting the nasty parts of the Bible and promoting the parts that suit your needs.
Sorry, it's all in there for everybody to read. No need for an interpreter. We've had way too many of those for way too long.
Cheers,
Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 10:50 PM Bailey has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 47 of 110 (491422)
12-15-2008 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
12-15-2008 7:03 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
If you care to rebutt John 3:16-18 which tell us.
God loved us.
God gave a sacrifice for us.
Whosoever believes should have everlasting life.
God did not send His Son to condemn the world.
The world was already condemned.
He that believeth is not condemned.
He that believeth not is condemned already.
If you can't rebutt these verses with scripture this turkey is done.
No need for scripture. How about a just a little common sense?
God loved us
Past tense. He loved his creation, knew exactly what he had created and then threw man out on his ear for a small infraction of the rules.
God gave a sacrifice for us
ONLY AFTER DROWNING US, BURNING US AND PUTTING US TO THE SWORD. And even then ONLY in a symbolic way did he give us Jesus as a sacrifice.
Whosoever believes shall have everlasting life
And what of those people who will never hear the word? Are they condemned to hell too? Too bad God decided to make himself known to only those in a very small, remote corner of the Earth and then only to the chosen few. Everybody else, too freakin bad.
God did not send his Son to condemn the world
Right, God had already done that. There wasn't anything left for Jesus to condemn. Oh! but wait there's more. God DOES promise to send Jesus back to Earth (Jesus 2.0 if you will) where he WILL condemn the world and everything upon it. How many cold starts does God need to get it right?
The world was already condemned
Yes, by the ever loving creator.
He that believeth is not condemned
Too late! There's a large gap between the time of the garden and the time that Jesus walked the Earth. What about those men that lived during this time? I guess these men are just SOL or they are being held to a different standard.
He that believeth not is already condemned
Thanks for that. We have no choice in the matter. It's not a matter of believe and enjoy the fruits of your belief, but believe or else! What an ego! Why does God REQUIRE us to believe or else? Can't we just have a nice separation from God instead of the fires of hell?
If you can't rebutt these verses with scripture this turkey is done.
Sorry, this turkey is done anyway. You cannot use the Bible to refute the Bible any more than you can use the Bible to affirm the Bible.
It's a crock! It's ridiculous and it is the reason why we have religious morons flying airplanes into buildings. Face it, the world would be much better off if logic and common sense replaced faith and prayer. God gave you a brain and an ability to think and reason. Religion would rather that you park your brain and your ability to reason at the door before entering.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2008 7:03 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2008 3:16 PM caldron68 has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 49 of 110 (491648)
12-18-2008 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jaywill
12-18-2008 3:16 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Some of us (Christians) do no see Adam's act as "a small infraction of the rules". Rather he brought a kind of poison into man which assured that his discendents would be constituted with an evil foreign nature.
For example, if a mother warns a child not to drink a bottle of poison, and the child disobeys, it has two problems:
1.) An infraction of the mother's rule.
2.) The system of the child has been poisoned.
The constitution of man's being having been altered created a huge problem. It even plunged the creation into disharmony. While I don't understand everything about this, I do understand that the act of Adam caused humanity and the natural environment to collapse.
Secondly, the Bible's teaching on this is not as frivolous as you would like to make it. The principle of one man's act having universal enfluence on mankind worked not only against humanity but also for humanity.
If you read Romans chapter 5 you will see that Christ's act of obedience has an opposite effect in constituting millions righteous before God and insuring that they can become "partakers of the divine nature"
So the same principle that worked against us God uses to work for us (who believe the work of salvation which He has done).
God set up the system, placed Adam and Eve within the system and told them not to eat of the fruit. Adam and Eve are like children at this point and do not understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. They are tempted to eat of the fruit by another of God's creations (Lucifer/Satan) and are punished severely for doing so. Not only are Adam and Eve individually punished, but all of mankind is punished because of a child like disobedience.
Your analogy of this action does not even come close to covering what happened to Adam, Eve and the rest of mankind. For your analogy to work, the Mother would not only have to punish the child for being disobedient, but she would also have to punish the child's children and then their children's children etc, etc..
You seem to be excercising you skill to look at the ironinc and negative side of things. You would probably make a good satirist or comedian as this is a skill they need to be successful.
But you personally were not drowned. You personally have not been burned. And maybe you should start by looking back over the last, let us say, year. Think of how many things you could possibly be thankful to God for.
I mean even though there have been some problems in your life God has also provided you with many days of happiness. Discussing theological themes with you would be improved of you could get a little of that cynical bias out of your thoughts.
As you look back over the last year, is there nothing for which you could possibly be thankful to God?
Now concerning Christ's death. It is not just symbolic but it is applicable. When you receive the Spirit of the resurrected Christ into your human spirit, that death He experienced on the cross actually acts to kill off spiritual and psychological germs which are working in you. You, as one who is indwelt with by Jesus, can actially learn to utlize what He did on the cross to crucify bad habits and kill off harmful character traits until you are transformed into a person who expresses Jesus in his living.
This is not to mention that His shed blood can cleanse a man's entire life's record of every sin from before God. The believer in Jesus is viewed by God as having ALREADY been judged. He is before God as if he had never sinned.
This has tremendous benefits, one of which is eternal life.
Of course I was not personally drowned or burned or put to the sword. That's not the point. The point is that these things DID happen. It's right there in the book and it cannot be ignored.
Perhaps you can overlook these devious deeds because you THINK that God has blessed you and your life. I can't. Yes, good things have happened to me in my life but I don't automatically assume that these things are the direct result of a loving, compassionate God. The good things that have happened to me are a direct result of plain old hard work.
How can you possibly enter into a loving relationship with God when you know that he ordered the murder of children and infants? And more than once, I might add. Of course, you'll find some way to squirm out of this problem and I can't wait to hear the answer.
This is not a problem. But some more reading of the Bible seriously would help you.
No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. But Jesus Christ is a living Person. So if anyone anywhere in the world comes to the Father it will be through Jesus Christ.
Having said that, you should realize that that is different from saying "No one comes to the Father except through Christianity."
I don't worry anymore about trying to assure every hypothetical situation. The Judge of the whole earth will do justly.
An evangelist like me would tend to remind you that whatever the situation of those people is, that is not your situation. So as one who needs to decide what to do with His offer of salvation, you have to consider not their situation, but your situation. You have heard the good news that Jesus is the Savior, the Lord.
As an evangelist I would say then, what will you do with Jesus the living Person? You are NOT the blind, deaf, and dumb aboriginal in the forests of the Amazon in 500 BC. What will you do with Christ in your situation?
Oh please!! This is a huge problem. Your basic advice here is not to worry about those that have not heard the word and worry about myself. If no one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, then a whole lot of people are NOT going to come to the Father. Of course, you as a Christian absolutely believe that your way is the right way and the only reason you believe that is because that's how you were raised. There are literally billions of other people that were not raised as Christian and they also believe that they are absolutely right and it is YOU who is going to burn forever in the pits of hell.
Sorry, did God not see this little problem coming? The whole my God is better than your God thing? Then again, maybe he did. Perhaps that's the whole point. We don't want heaven to be too crowded now do we.
You're not as clever as you think you are. Should I assume that your cleverness also means that you are wise?
While all this time is elapsing between the first physical coming of Christ and the second physical return of Christ, He is amassing an army.
God uses time to spread the gospel of grace to all the world.
Of course once one is forgiven he may not voluntarily turn over all of his being to be saturated with the divine nature that Christ has brought into him. Since some will cooperate with sanctification and some will not, those who will will be rewarded to riegn with Christ over the earth in His return. They are called those who overcome.
The defeated ones will be disciplined but they will not lose their gift of eternal redemption.
So the time elapsing is used by Christ to accumlate enough overcoming ones down through the ages to be co-kings with Him in His millennial kingdom. They are more than conquerors and are awarded the honor of sharing His coming reign over the recovered earth for 1,000 years.
If you read carefully you'll see that before the age of eternity (Revelation 21 and 22) there is the preliminary 1,000 years millennial kingdom.
Those through the ages since Christ's incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, will not be disappointed nor feel they wasted their lives. This corporate victorious army taken from all those saved ones who were cooperative in the church age, will be the Manchild (Rev. 12) of overcomers who will co-reign with the King of kings.
Revelations is a crock of crap and has been dismissed by a very large list of famous evangelicals and critical thinkers, including, but not limited to:
Robert G. Ingersoll
Thomas Jefferson
Martin Luther
John Calvin
Here the reference: Book of Revelation - Wikipedia
It's vile, it's offensive and it proves the point that God is cruel and capricious.
Let me stop here and ask you about your beliefs.
Why are you here on the earth? I mean for what purpose were you born?
If you have something superior to the eternal purpose of God in Christ, I would like to hear about it.
So please tell us. What is the meaning of your existence here? Why does your heart beat and your lungs breath?
You may have something better than living unto God. What is it?
Here's your chance to enlighten me what the real deal is. Go for it. I am all ears.
Ok, here it is with both barrels. I CAN LIVE MY LIFE IN A JUST AND MEANINGFUL MANNER AND NO GOD THREATENING ME WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION IS REQUIRED. HOW'S THAT?
Evidently YOU cannot live your life this way. You require a God looking at your every action because you believe that that is what's happening and instead of being good for the very sake of being good, you're good because you believe it will buy you brownie points with the big man upstairs.
I believe that living the Christian life is an honorable way of living your life. Just keep your beliefs out of my government and schools. The place to learn about God is in church and NOT in our public schools. Concerned about creationism vs. evolution? Teach your side in church, and as you said, don't worry about those that don't hear the word.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2008 3:16 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 7:51 AM caldron68 has not replied
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 3:05 PM caldron68 has replied
 Message 58 by Agobot, posted 12-20-2008 9:56 AM caldron68 has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 54 of 110 (491698)
12-19-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jaywill
12-19-2008 3:05 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
We know better.
This is beneath argument.
You know better than John Calvin and Martin Luther? Really?
We know better.
This comment should not be dignified with a reply.
This book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is not primarily the revelation of horns, locusts, frogs, dragons, earthquakes.
You just don't know what to look for.
Ahhh, so now we discover the real problem. If you hadn't noticed from my previous posts, I think you tend to gloss over the bad and glorify the good. Do you have any critical thinking skills at all?
Notice though you did not tell us what that meaning was.
You just shouted that you can live without fear of damnation and threats, etc.
Seems your Bible is very short, like this:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And God kills some babies. And the rest of you are going to burn in hell forever.
THE END"
It is a stupid caricature, a myopic one sided biased view.
I doubt that you have even read much of the Bible at all. In fact I have doubts about your reading comprehension of anything over a few sentences long, let alone a library of 66 books.
WOW! Now that really stings. Here we've only exchanged a few paragraphs and you have doubts about my ability to comprehend anything over a few sentences long! I should say the same about you. Your sentence structure mistakes and spelling errors say a lot about you.
Myopic? I acknowledge both the good and the bad in the bible and it's my view that's myopic? Seems to me that it is YOUR view that is myopic.
I notice that you didn't say what the meaning of your life was.
Why is that?
I'm an engineer Jaywill, not a philosopher. My life has meaning only to me and those that I love and provide for. I live my life the same way you live your life. I do my best every single day to be as kind, compassionate and as honest as I can possibly be. I am judged by my family and by those I interact with on a daily basis. If I am also being judged by a supreme being, so be it, but i will not alter my behavior because that may be the case.
Looks to me like you're the one living in dread glancing over the shoulder all the time.
You wish, but then again, that's how you kind, compassionate, loving Christian types think.
That's like "The place to learn about gravity is only the science class room. No where else is it relevant."
Dumb.
Teach the science behind gravity in Church all you want Jaywill, nobody is stopping you. Just forget about teaching creationism in public schools.
Take your students over to the Creation Museum and introduce them to the solid science behind Young Earth Creationism. Don't forget to check your critical thinking skills at the door.
Cheers,
--Caldron68
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 3:05 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2008 8:22 AM caldron68 has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3831 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 63 of 110 (491729)
12-20-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jaywill
12-20-2008 8:22 AM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Some things, yea. Does that shock you?
Not at all.
God is moving on. He is moving on from the days of Calvin and Luther. He is still opening the Bible's meaning to us. As we draw closer and closer to the second coming of Christ, things which were less clear become more clear.
Is it God that is moving on or is it man? God's word has not changed in 2000 years, but certainly Man's interpretation of the word seems to change constantly.
Make your case then.
I already have, or I should say that you already have. You quickly brush away the difficult passages of the bible using the excuse that essentially those were God's righteous actions against sin. I see the global flood, as an example, as completely unnecessary, cruel and hardly a righteous action.
I think you're very biased.
I think you are too
Now while you distract the issue about my spelling and sentence structure, get busy and finish what I asked - that is to explain why you are alive and what your purpose in this world is. That is if you have something better than believing Christ.
I believe that it was you who issued the first ad-hominem attack. I have also already explained to you what I think my purpose in this world is. I'm sorry you cannot accept my answer.
Now for me, God is "building" a "city" called New Jerusalem. You can read about it in Revelation 21 and 22. It is a symbol of the consummation of the purpose of His creating the universe and mankind in it. God wants to dispense His life into man so that man and God become a mingled and united entity.
This is the reason I was born, to build up this New Jerusalem for the enjoyment of man and the expression of God. This is called the "eternal purpose" of God in the New Testament.
I was walking around in daze before my inner eyes were opened by revelation to see New Jerusalem. I thought we were just here by some accident on a second rate planet, circling a second rate star which was eventually going to die out.
Modern thought and Darwinianism painted a bleak meaningless existence inspite of advancing technology. I know now that I was created to be a brother in life, nature, and expression with Jesus the Son of God.
Why are you here?
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about your choice of belief and purpose in life. In fact, I think that's great! I've already said that leading a Christian lifestyle is a righteous thing to do.
But for me, modern thought (science) and Darwinism do not paint a bleak meaningless picture. I applaud science for bringing us out of the dark ages and giving us a better understanding of the physical world around us. What I don't like are those people that discredit scientific discoveries because they go against the 'stories' found in the Bible. Thus my reference to the Creation Museum in the previous post.
Not so far, you haven't acknowledge anything beside hell and baby killing, that I can recall.
Ok, how's this: I believe that the NT provides us with a set of excellent examples of how to lead a fulfilling and rewarding life. But I also believe that one can lead a fulfilling and rewarding life without having to ask 'What would Jesus do?'. How about just ask yourself, 'What is the right thing to do?'.
You've done already a good deal of hefty philosophizing I think about God, and the worthlessness of Him. You philosophized that it was useless to be thankful to any supposed God and that you have only your own hard work to thank for anything.
And for very good reasons, don't you think? Am I to believe that everything good that has happened to me is a direct result of actions taken by an invisible benefactor? And what of those things that have happened to me that are not so good? Are those also the result of an invisible benefactor interceding in my life?
This is one of those ideas promoted by religion that I have always found to be ridiculous. Anything good that happens is directly attributable to a loving God. Anything bad that happens, well, God was not involved. Does God have a personal plan for you? Did God have a personal plan for the man killed in a freak accident?
(Spelling Spelling! small i !) See I can notice errors too.
Yeah, but you started it :-)
There you go! Great critical thinking skills displayed there. Assume that a group of rather vocal Young Earth Creationists must represent all Christians.
No they don't and I never said that they did. You assume to much.
Can I do the same and suggest that you take your "students" somewhere to learn how to build faulty collapsing bridges?
Gladly! And they will learn from the mistakes of others. Will you take your students to the Creation Museum and then use that opportunity to teach right from wrong?
Can I take a few lousy engineers and assume they represent the whole bunch of you all?
Double standard? You should have decided to be something else then when you found out that some engineers build structures wrong.
No double standard here Sir. Engineers learn from their mistakes and bad engineers are generally ferreted out and do not find additional work. Science works the same way. Bad science is replaced with better science when the facts are irrefutable. This does not seem to be the case with religion. Have you made any attempt to speak out against Ken Hamm and his Creation Museum, or do you just let it go because he is part of the Christian brotherhood?
My reasons for believing in a more ancient earth are theological mostly and not due to dating methods. And you have no scientific fact which proves the falsity of this statement:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
This is a perfect example of why the YEC perspective persists. At least you acknowledge an ancient Earth, but you're not going to give any credit to science for helping to understand just exactly how old the Earth is. YECs believe that all radiometric dating methods are flawed because the results of these dating methods contradict their intrepretation of Genesis.
And on your second statement about the creation of the heavens and the Earth, you cannot prove the validity of that statement either. What science does prove, amongst a very long list of other things, is that the Earth is older than 6000 years.
Of late I hear more about prehistoric killer gas, killer comets, killer asteroids, killer ice, killer volcanoes, etc.
Seems modern science theories are inching closer to what Genesis 1:2 discribes as the condition of the earth before it was prepared for man's existence.
It's easy to fit past and/or current events into descriptions of ancient events and prophesy that is so broad that everything easily fits.
In another thread on this same forum another poster has managed to fit current Middle Eastern events into prophesy described in Revelations. Muslims have managed to find a prophesy for just about everything in their holy book. Some Christians have even found evidence for television and the internet in the Bible (Revelations, I believe).
For hundreds of years there have been those that have predicted the eminent arrival of the 'End of Days'. Most of these whack jobs have even come up with hard dates for the second coming of Jesus. All of them have used current events to affirm religious prophesy and all have been left standing on the Earth when the predicted date arrived and passed.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2008 8:22 AM jaywill has not replied

  
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