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Author | Topic: The Big C: Circumcision | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: quote: Maybe that describes people that you chose to hang around with during that time, but perhaps I had better taste in friends than you. I saw through shallow people a mile away and didn't give them the time of day. I still don't understand why you want to encourage your children to conform to everyone else's idea of what's "normal".
quote: quote: Um, they don't "fix" asian childrens' eyelids when they are infants, though, do they? The choice to have these unfortunate surgeries to look more WASP is up to the individual getting the surgery, isn't it?
quote: Just because I didn't mention them doesn't mean I approve. Remember, we are talking about surgery. Would you approve of some parents of a infant who's eyelids looked "too asian" getting cosmetic surgery to make them appear more "normal" in America?
quote: Non-surgical, temporary "enhancements", sone with the free informed choice of the enhanced, is entirely different from circumcision of infants.
quote: Yep, that's true.
quote: Because you can't do anything about his getting picked on. It's going to happen over a bunch of other things. You seem to want to teach him that most women are shallow, but he has to conform to their shallow expectations anyway. Wouldn't it be better to teach him to recognize quality in people and to avoid those who are shallow and concerned with the superficial? [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-06-2003]
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I just don't get where you think that "great social ostracism" would occur. I, personally, wouldn't have cared a bit if any of my boyfriends were uncircumsized or not. I have honestly never heard a single negative comment about it from any of my girlfriends over the years, and in fact have only heard positive or neutral comments. If it's sexual partners you are worried about, you should be glad they get rejected by a woman so shallow that she cares if he is uncircumsized or not. Here's an interesting exercise: Replace "uncircumsized" in that sentence with one or more of the following words or phrases: richon the football team tall drives a fancy car is a certain religion is in a certain ethnic group
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I most certainly do object to anyone thinking they have the right to mess about with my nether regions without getting my approval! Tell me, crashfrog, what do you think of footbinding?
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greyline Inactive Member |
quote: quote: I was going to suggest that crashfrog repeat his above comment to the women in his life - his sisters, mother, colleagues, wife, girlfriend, etc. and see what kind of response it drew! (Not that male circumcision is a "token snip", but that only makes the point more clearly - women in general would strenuously object to even the slightest interference with their genitals.) This again harks back to my original reason for starting this thread - the ethics of amputating someone else's body parts when those parts are perfectly healthy and when that person did not consent. Why do parents think they have the right to irreversibly alter their child's genitals? They don't own their children's bodies - they are meant to be *guardians* of their children. And why do doctors think they have the right to perform unnecessary mutilations on non-consenting people? That doesn't conform to any standards of medical ethics. A Queensland law paper a few years ago proved this along with all the associated legal jargon, and made the obvious point about repercussions: that men could sue their parents or doctor for their infant circumcisions. ------------------o--greyline--o
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
There are also glands, in the eurethra, which produce a superb lubricant. It's purpose seems to be to facilite ejaculation. It is sometimes called "pre-ejaculate fluid."
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Thank you for the link. Indeed, this information was not in circulation when I was at university. I think the following quote from the site does a pretty good job of summing up the argument against routine circumcision:
quote: ------------------Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
crashfrog responds to me:
quote:quote: Um, it never occurred to you that the statement that I quoted was the one I wanted you to justify? When I said, "You didn't just say that, did you?" what did you think the "that" refers to?
quote: And feigning ignorance like you are now doesn't help your position, either.
quote: Sure. Justify your statements that I blinked at. I even took the time and trouble to quote them for you so that you'd remember what it was you said. Do I need to repeat them?
quote:quote: Oh, we're about to have a semantic argument, aren't we? I'm going to quote what you said, you're going to respond that you didn't use the word "requirement," and then you're going to pretend that the word you really used doesn't mean that. (*sigh!*) Well, if you insist:
But as long as it's necessary to have a fulfilled sexual life in this culture You're going to say that "necessary" doesn't mean "requirement." I'll point out that you have gone on and on about the social ostracism an uncircumcised boy would have to endure quoting your statements of:
In a context where a lack of circumcision carries with it deep social stigma, circumcision is as corrective a surgery as getting rid of webbed feet. And
Quite frankly, if you're odd or different in high school, you get dumped with shit that lasts you most of your life. So give unto me a frickin' break. For you to quibble over the word "requirement" when it is clear that it's exactly what you mean is not conducive to this "discussion" you claimed you wanted to have above.
quote: See...here we go. You said much more than that.
quote:quote: Then where on earth do you get off making statements such as:
Not to mention that the glans itself contains as many nerve endings that might very well not be stimulated in the presence of the foreskin. If you have absolutely no experience over how an uncircumcised penis works, how can you possibly make any legitimate claim about what is or is not stimulated?
quote: As I said before, which you also ignored: And the fact that so few males are intact in this country has nothing to do with it, of course. Go to a country where circumcision is rare and take a poll.
quote: Incorrect. It's the other way around. While I don't deny your personal anecdote, surely I don't have to remind you that anecdote is not evidence. The general opinion of those who have been circumcised after sexual maturity is that uncircumcised is better.
quote: How would you know? You don't have one and you only have anecdote. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
crashfrog responds to me:
quote:quote: (*blink!*) Excuse me? You didn't just say that, did you? Killing someone when you didn't have to is somehow not a problem? Deliberately putting someone in a situation where they can and do die when there is absolutely no reason to do it is not a problem?
quote:quote: You understand wrong.
quote: Question: Do you have anal sex often? Then how would you know if the combination is "undesireable"? Does the phrase "cleaning out" mean anything to you?
quote: How do you know they're going to hate it? And if they hate it that much, they can take care of it themselves. Don't project your neurosis about foreskins onto your children.
quote: But when your "best guess" requires surgery, one has to wonder why you seem to think that you need to carve up your children to satisfy your own obsession.
quote: Um, wouldn't "keeping the option open" require leaving the foreskin there? Once it's gone, you can't get it back. If your son is going to have the option, then you're going to have to leave it there and let him decide what to do with it. It's his body, not yours. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Agent Uranium [GPC] responds to me:
quote:quote: I don't think it could not cause any medical problems. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
doctrbill responds to me:
quote: Well, sorta. There is the prostate gland and Cowper's glands that produce seminal fluid and such. They empty into the urethra, yes, but they are within the body cavity, not anywhere near the glans. Plus, they are only in action during sex. The Tyson's glands, on the other hand, are in the glans and are secreting whether you have sex or not. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I most certainly do object to anyone thinking they have the right to mess about with my nether regions without getting my approval! Well, I think you find that when it's already happened to you, and you have no memory of it, and it hasn't caused any perceptible loss of function, you don't really mind. At least that's my experience and the vast experience of circumcised men.
Tell me, crashfrog, what do you think of footbinding? Sounds painfully and permanently debilitating. So I guess I'm opposed. Why, what did you think I would say?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I was going to suggest that crashfrog repeat his above comment to the women in his life - his sisters, mother, colleagues, wife, girlfriend, etc. and see what kind of response it drew! Upon doing exactly that, I discovered that my wife at least felt that a token snip of the labia, performed at birth and entailing no alteration of function later in life, was not that big a deal. I have no reason to suspect that my wife is alone in this assessment, I guess.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
quote: Since removal of the foreskin does result in an alteration of function, where do you stand? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
quote: How do you know? You've never had a foreskin in order to be able to tell the difference. The general consensus from those who have had their foreskins removed later in life and can tell the difference is that having a foreskin is better. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The general consensus from those who have had their foreskins removed later in life and can tell the difference is that having a foreskin is better. Then why do people opt for the procedure? For that matter, how many people in your sample can't tell the difference? And why do men without foreskins have more sex, and report greater satisfaction with their sex lives? As has been mentioned, America has the greatest incidence of circumcision in men. Americans have the most sex, on average, of any nation on Earth. Now, I'm not trying to argue causality, but I find that may be indicative of something.
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