Why did God forgive our sins?

Yes, it is self-centered to think that anyone who doesn't agree with your worldview is destined for eternal damnation and torment. I choose to serve no one person or entity. Been there, done that. I am a son, grandson and nephew of ordained hell-fire and brimstone Christian Church ministers. I was baptised twice, once by my Grandfather at 8 and the second at 22 years of age. I served as a home Bible group leader and personally baptized two of my friends. I have read the Bible inside and out and I know exactly what you preach. You have no clue what my background is, don't assume you do. I get sick and tired of holier-than-thou, self-righteous "Christians" as yourself, assuming that anyone who disagrees with them has no clue of what the Bible is about or what the Christian religion entails. I would venture the vast majority of those disenchanted with Christianity are previously devout "born-again" believers who have through critical thinking, logical deduction and personal research have deduced that the Christian faith (as well as many other religous beliefs) is a farse.I am just pointing out the inconsistencies and the self-centeredness of your message (i.e God wiping out the memories of those bound for heaven vs. free will). This isn't a personal attack, however, due to most Christians deeply held beliefs they treat it so.Regardless, I wish peace and good will to all humanity (including you) and hope that someday you can open your eyes to the richness this present life on Earth entails.Happy Holidays.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

No doubt considering all of the knowledge of the Bible that you have acquired from your Biblical past you do understand that if the Biblical god be a true god and is supreme majesty and creator of the universe, you really have no choice. You ultimately choose to submit to him or you choose eternal damnation.Nobody in their right mind would knowingly choose damnation if they believed that the Bible was a supernaturally inspired record. For this reason, my approach to helping someone like you is to help you understand that there is supernatural evidence in the record which support it's credibility. Until you truly come to realize it's credibility, it is useless to attempt to coax you into submitting to the Biblical god Jehovah and his son, the lord/master Jesus the messiah/christ.This was likely Judas's problem. He was daily with the Jesus group going through all of the things they did but unlike the others, he never did come to recognize that Jesus was the true messiah/christ as prophesied in the OT scriptures.Perhaps though, he like most of the Pharisees and Sadducee's, witnessed the miracles, but chose not to assume the responsibilities of submitting to a lord/master who preached damnation to the lost, suffering to his followers who would be persecuted for their choice and salvation to the repentant.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

If you are appealing to God's ultimate authority by asking me "God is God , no?" then I would turn the question around to you. God is God, no? Then how He has done what He has done and in the timing with which He accomplishes it, us under His authority. No?If God were working with simply rocks and sticks, then there would be a much simplier situation. Under His own authroity He has created creatures which because of their wills, have to potential to cause Him a lot of trouble.You are totally free to think this: "Okay, God I acknowledge that you are the ultimate authority here. But because I don't agree with how you did things, I don't want anything to do with you."If that is your philosophy, go ahead and let that be your reason to not want Him.I count myself as loving a living God and not just agreeing with a "system". You say "I think there are errors in the system." I on the other hand am attracted to a living God. He is more than just a "system" to me.Basically you are saying, "Why is it not the New Jerusalem all along? Since it was not the New Jerusalem all along with no need for decision, will, salvation, I count the system as faulty. So I'll take my chances having nothing to do with the Originator of the system. I think I'll fair better without any God."Run with that then. It will not stop New Jerusalem and the new heaaven and new earth from coming about. I don't see what it will do for you. Maybe it will give you some perverse sense of independence or superiority to God. Maybe you can get a rush off of that while you are being judged under the wrath of God.I think I won't go that way. I think I'll say "Here, the situation I find myself in. And here is the way of salvation graciously provided by God. I will choose this way of salvation. " You can let it say to you what you will let it say to you.I am very moved in my heart by what Jesus has done for me. I don't want to engage in your sport - "If I think about it hard enough I can arrive at faults in the system and excuse myself from His offer of salvation."Is it worth it? Maybe its not worth it. Maybe in your limited understanding you err in judgement as to the heart of God, the intention and motive of God.Chaldron, I am not above being deceived. I think you also could be deceived. You have to eventually trust someone. You can trust your skeptical websites and your athiest and speptical liturature. You can trust Jeffrey Lowder or John Stills or Bertrand Russell. You can be dazzled by their logic.Me? I think I am going to trust Jesus Christ. Somehow He has opened up a door in my heart and in my mind to be willing to talk to Him and hear Him. I think I'll trust Jesus.All due respect. You're a man. You decide. I have decided to try to teach people how to believe. If you want to devote your time to teaching people how not to believe in Jesus, that is your choice.It will not stop New jerusalem from coming. And she is already here and growing. I don't know His mind in this completely. I do know what His covenant is. That is what is important. And His covenant calls for my decision. I choose to trust His love, His Person, His plan and His timing.My heart would have to be made of stone not to be touched by the sacrifice of the Son of God for me. If that thought is enough to arm you with good reasons before God on the last day, then that's what you have to tell Him.My gut feel is that that will not give you peace within. You will have to arm yourself with more and more excuses. There are not enough reasons to give you the peace you need to be ready to speak to Christ.Personally, any ego rush I may get from saying "Look at me everybody. I can find faults with God's system !" is not enough to harden my heart towards what Jesus has done for me.I am constrained by the love of Christ. And I don't trust my own rebellious rationals in this matter. I feel safer to trust what the Bible tells me as a discloser of God's heart and motives toward me.I am simply more impressed with Jesus Christ than with hard mysteries about the way the whole plan of God has unfolded and its timing.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The key phrase is "if the Biblical god be a true god". That is the crux of the problem. You hit the nail on the head. Do you really think anyone would willingly be damned to torment in a burning lake of fire for eternity? That is why I see the story of Lucifer so ludicrous and laughable. That someone of his intelligence and knowledge would willingly counter an all-powerful entity knowing full-well of the eternal destination prepared for him. This defies all common sense and rational thinking. Again you hit the nail on the head Buzzsaw. That is the only way to prove the validity of the Christian faith to a rational thinking person who is not swayed soley by unsubstantiated, emotional personal experiences (which have a great way of fooling the mind into believing all sorts of pseudoscientific and outright fabricated myths i.e. UFO's, astrology, ghosts, etc) but rather relies on substantiated evidence and logic to paint the picture of what reality is. If this story is even true. Ditto. There is no substantial proof how much of these stories were true or whether much of the Bible could have been rewritten, added to, etc from original historical accounts by early Jewish scholars, the early Church fathers, ecumenical councils, etc. Much speculation still surrounds the creation and canonization of the Bible both OT and NT.Even if this story was true, I would seriously doubt he (or any intelligent person) would willingly and knowingly turn in the master and creator of the universe and of determinor of his own eternal destination. It would make more sense like you said previously that he doubted his claim to be God and the savior of mankind.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Some of us get into this situation. We want God's blessings. But we don't want Him Himself.We love for Him to provide our sunshine, give our water, give our food, bless us with all kinds of things. But we do not want God Himself as a Person.We love His things. But we do not love Him for Himself.The poster above seems to want God to do or have done everything. But will God say to him one day "Yes, you wanted Me to do everything. But you didn't want Me."When will we love Him for Himself? Jesus the Son of Man the Son of God could say that even though He be tortured to death and be under the wrath of God, He loved the Father for Himself.He did it for us. At least He led the way.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Bertot, first, thanks for the reply. Of all the replies that I have received to this thread, I think yours are the move level-headed. Thank You.But, I think you're missing my point. Considering that God is omniscient and omnipotent, that is, taking into account that God knows the outcome of his actions before he sets them in motion, doesn't it make sense that a truly loving God would create a system in which more of his beloved creation is saved than destroyed?My main point is that, in the end, God will create a perfect Earth or New Jerusalem with sinless men. He knows this is where things need to end up and since God is God, he could have created this perfect place first. We can argue that he did create this perfect place and that it was Adam that screwed it up. Certainly God knew this was going to happen and he could have taken steps to change this outcome.It is obvious from reading the previous posts that free will is a thing of the past when man finally arrives in heaven. ICANT says that God will erase his memory and others have said that God will remove sin from man altogether (Jaywill) once he reaches heaven. If this is the case, then God will be removing free will from man once he reaches Heaven. Why not start there in the first place?Of course, the problem with this is that we are also told that there IS freewill in heaven. This is why we have a Satan in the first place. Lucifer exercised his freewill and POW, we have Satan. We have to look at Adam as a metaphor for all men. That each man individually will exercise his freewill and will either end up in Heaven or in hell. The problem is that the deck has been stacked against us from the beginning. If it wasn't, then the Bible would describe the road to hell as being narrow and the road to Heaven as being wide. But that is not the case. The road to hell is described as wide in the Bible and many will travel it. The bible also describes the gate to Heaven as narrow and few will find it. It's a given that more men will go to hell than heaven. There's no getting around that because that is what the Bible says and that is what Christians believe, including myself. Why is this? Why does our freewill more easily lead us to a path of destruction than to a path of salvation? And again, why did God not see this coming and realize that the outcome would render more sorrow than happiness? My complaint is perfectly legitimate. God knows that his system will render more misery than joy and Christians find that perfectly acceptable. I agree. All of this is a myth and not God's will, so it does not matter. Yes, my complaint is derived from the scriptures and they plainly say that more men will go to hell than Heaven. Regardless of the scale of balance between scriptures that describe the kind and loving God vs those that describe the vengeful and wrath filled God, my statement remains true and intact. They don't. The scriptures do not contradict themselves in terms of freewill and punishment. And it's not a simple complaint and it is completely valid as a reasonable argument. What could be more valid than the statement that more men will end up in hell than in Heaven? I'm NOT saying anything that is NOT in the bible, right? The logical conclusion then is, that there will be more misery and not just a temporary misery but an eternal misery. That is unless we think that the lake of fire is akin to a soak in the hot tub. Not just the skeptic. When faced with any biblical conundrum, the believer quickly cherry picks a handful of individual pieces of scripture in order to deflect the issue.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Thanks for proving my point ICANT.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Thanks for backing me up on this.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Thanks for backing me up on this. God is God, he has/had the power to do the right thing and chose not to. I have no perverse sense of independence or superiority to God. I am simply asking a question and you have taken offense to that question. And with all due respect to you, I will decide, but in my own good time. I am simply exercising my freewill to question the outcome of God's plan. Who am I to question? Nobody. Who gave me the right to question? God did. I am happy that you have found your peace Jaywill. Don't belittle me for taking a path that, at this point, is different from yours. Perhaps it is just the way I was built, who knows. My earliest recollection of the Church is being taught the story of Noah. My first reaction to that story was one of doubt. How could Noah have built a boat large enough, etc, etc....?The problem for me is that the Bible contains stories that, when read literally, simply cannot be true and are not backed up by scientific fact. My fight is with those that believe the opposite. Those that believe that every word is the absolute truth about how things happened dispite the volume of evidence to the contrary.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Cal writes:I think you are failing to the difference between a complaint and logical contradiction. You may have a ligitimate complaint from a human standpoint, but you would need to demonstrate that a logical contradiction exists given all the factors involved. You do realize that to complain about a plan from a limited perspective (finite) and contend that because he is omnipotent and omniscient, that these things should not be the way they are, puts you nearly in a contradictory position , correct? Not to mention that it is a bit ironic, for how would you know that these actions are not the most correct and valid. How could an infinite being in wisdom and knowledge, that is, that he possess all details of all possible scenerios and circumstances, possibly be inaccurate, wrong, mistaken or invalid? I see no way out of this delima, what say ye, fella? Consider the following verses: My intention by qouting these verse is not to critize Job. If I had been in Jobs place, I am certain I would have folded like a hallmark card, being the typical coward I am. As soon as the Lord started asking me questions, I would have said, Lord with all due respect I am not in any mood to answer questions, could you just kill me and get it over with. Even extreme distress Job understood he proper place of Gods wisdom, Idont think I would have been as understnading as Job.Further it is not my intention to imply that all the answers to these questions can be logically deduced, much of the scripture while supported by much evidence is still requires alot of faith on our part. Omniscience is one of those, leaps of faith. If you choose not to go down this path, that is your choice.Cal writes further:While I do not agree mans mind will be erased and this may not be what Dr. ICANT is saying, you need to understand that we (Christians) are now Presently, made perfect in Christ. We dont need to wait until we get to heaven. John the Apostle writes to living humans (Christians), "If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin""Blessed is the man to whom God does not imput sin", Charge to his account.Being perfect in a biblical sense does not mean that we do not have sin. It means that that perfection is obtainable, even presently in the blood and sacrifice of Christ.He said, "be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect". "I and the father are one", "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me"
One obtains perfection in Christ and in obedience to Christ. His command to be perfect was not a statement to us that we should believe we could accomplish this on our own, even though the free will process is involved,perfection will utimately come from that which is perfect itself, God. Its a flawless, fool proof system, BAM.Nor do I believe God will remove free will from us in heaven, but I do believe that the blood of Christ will follow us there.As the old hymn goes we will sing his praises thoughout eternity. Reward can only have true menaing if we know why we are there. Wrong. Your struggle here, is with the nature of free will. Again, you nearly puting yourself in a contradictory position in maintaining that free will is indeed free choice, then implying by the above statement that he choice is not yours. However it is. That is the definition of free will. How can the deck be stack against YOU, when you are the one making the choice, even in these posts. Again however, we must fall back on the omnipotence to define what conditions should and need to exist.
Your complaint would be make more sense if you said, there is not enough evidence, to establish this or that concerning the scriptrures and its conclusions. In this respect atleast you would have a valid argument (not that that is any way true, from my perspective), as it stands your contention is not even a valid proposition the way it is formatted or stated. In the the instance you are working from the outside in. Presently you are trying to work from within the framework of the scriptures, about moral implications, not considering the totality of the nature of God, or the logical conclusions that proceed from that position. As I have demonstrated, your complaints will not stand the test of reason, in the context of the nature of God. Would your direct and indirect implication here be that it IS possible to do the right thing? Ofcourse it is. Your above statement reminds me of that old adage that says "Worrying about failure almost ensure failure".
Free will does not "more easily lead us to anything", this is an assertion. If there is even one person that can defy this statement, it would make it an assertion. Here is what the scriptrue has to say about the concept of free will:
"Let no man SAY, when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man, but every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust (mental decision) and enticed, (mental process again) then when lust is concieved it brings sin and when sin is concieved it brings death". James chapter one.The nature of free will is unique because it is an attribute of God. Nothing in or about free will lead us to do anything. The mind and desires are what dictate what free will do or not do. You are correct it is true and intact, it is simply not VALID to show contradiction from a scriptural or logical standpoint, given the reasons I have indicated. Your only problem is that while there is an issue in your mind, there is no contradiction in the totality of scripture. Results of free moral choice are as varied as the amount of individuals. Why do more people prefer this or that in life, who knows, it all has to do with taste and desire as the scriptures indicate. Desires are the result of a mental process of choice. One possess the exact amount of ablity to do the right thing as the wrong. To imply that free will leads us in one direction more than another is not reasonable.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

The paradox is that God and man both work togther, as is explained in Phil 2,12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out you salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it it God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.If God does not work and draw men to Himself, no one can can come to Him.If man does not respond to God's Spirit and repent, man cannot be saved.BlessingsEdited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

Hi Bertot, Your understanding of free will and mine must be different.Man is born with the ability to choose to trust in God.He has free will to do that or reject to do so.Once the free will is exercised and a person is born again there is no more free will to exercise.You can no more choose to get unborn from being a child of God as you can in being unborn from your earthly parents. Jesus says he gives us eternal life and we can never perish.You could not jump out of God's hand if you wanted to. But who would want too.He did say my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow Me.There are those who profess to have eternal life and then there are those who posess eternal life. Yes as usual caldron68 is confused.I said God would have to wipe away all the bad memories or Heaven would be full of misery.You are correct God will not erase our memory. I will even know who you are when I meet you in Heaven. When a person is born again the spirit is made perfect and is sealed by the Holy Spirit.When Jesus returns we will receive a body like He has got. A perfect one.When we have learned everything there is for us to know to prepare us to meet God in the New Jerusalem when He comes down and lives with us, God will wipe away anything that would hinder us in fulfilling His purpose. I think he has more that one problem concerning what the Bible says.At present there are 88 abortions performed every minute. There are 30 children that die of starvation every minute. This 118 who go out into eternity do not have to find the narrow way or the straight gate.The current world death rate is 104.1666 per minute.
If you take away the 30 children who die of starvation you have 74.1So if 100% of the 74.1666 go to the lake of fire.God gets 118 per minute.The devil gets 74.1666 per minute.Now if you knew the number of natural abortions that happen every minute you would probably have at least 100 a minute. That would give you 318 that do not have to find the narrow way.The math says there will be more in Heaven whether any adults make it or not. Regardless of what caldron68 says.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

IWONT WRITES:As is always the course with my brothers or sisters in Christ, I dont mind discussion, but I try and steer away from to much controversey for obvious resons.Paul said "recieve the weaker brother but not to doubtful disputations" Arguments over questions, I believe. Seeing that you clearly are the weaker brother, NO Im just kidding, ofcourse. I consider yours and Jaywill overall knowledge and experience much greater than mine.Your understanding of free will is in my view both correct, yet innocent and niave at the sametime. Its a beautiful expression of love and devotion to the Lord. You desire so strongly to obey him that you are willing to give your entire self to him. One could ask no more Yes ofcourse when we surrender our lives to Christ we lose our own will in the respect that we wish to follow his will. "Not my will but thy will be done". Im not sure though if we are justified in concluding that NO MORE free will exists on our part. The Apostle paul siad "prove all things, test whether or not you are in the faith", he was in these instances speaking to Christians. He also stated that he "buffeted his body daily, lest after preaching to others I myself should be a castaway" Now whether you believe castaway means temporaily or permanent, it certainly implies a choice to make a decision to follow through with the course."I have fought the good fight, finished the course and kept (free will) the faith" All of which imply an exercising of free moral choice. Your dedication to the Lord is so strong that your definition of free will is extreme to the highest possible good, which makes me say, that while it is aliitle distored, it is distored but in the best possible way and causes no real concern to myself, holmes. Your truely an impressive person. Yes you are correct, a child of God can never cease to be a child of God, yet I do not agree that even a child of God cannot exercise thier free will to the negative, to the point that if they continue in sin, they cannot eventually be lost. Ive been reading debates with calvanist since I was about 12 or 13 and I know the argument at this point. They usually say, "well then you will have Children of God in hell. In a sense this is correct. The chosen children of God in the OT, finally rejected his will and chose thier own to the point that God turned to another people to accomplish his will. There were mumerous people (Children of God, so to speak)on the day of Pentecost and in the years following that rejected Christ.
The Apostle John writing to Christians cautions that we IF walk (free will/choice) in the light as he is in the light to continue to recieve the cleansing affects of Christ blood.. "If", certainly implies that the opposite can also be true, that is, that it is possiblibe to not walk in the light even as a Child of God. Being a child of God does not guareentee we will not sin."If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and make God a liar. If however, we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us, for we have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the righteouss". Notice that forgiveness is an ongoing process as well. Notice also that in this whole process while here on earth, the free will decision making process in is full force.
So as to your application of earthly parents, I would point out that children can act in such a way that no matter who there parents are, will not stop them form being handed over to the Judge, jailer and prison and sometines it even involves capital punishment. But you are correct they never stop being thier parents child, it just that thier free will and coices land them in prison, away and apart from thier parents,some times for life. While I agree with the passages you quoted, your comments do match what the sritpures DO NOT say. The reason the scriptrues do not mention the child of God as being the one to jump, is because they can. You are certainly correct to state "why would they want to in the first place.' However, it would be presumptuous of us to assume that many of the people here that admit they were once Children of God, but have denounced it, were actually not. How could we know thier hearts at the point of thier conversions. Perhaps they were as in love with the Lord as yourself, but then became as one of the characters described in the parable of the sower. Doubt, disbelief, lack of faith, lust, cares, concerns and all of those things can certainly drive a Christian to that point.There is no passsage that states or intimates that we CANNOT jump, if we so desire. If we are willing to follow Christ, then all the blessings which you quoted above will most certainly apply. It is also true that nothing, except ourselves can separate us from the love of Christ, but staying is a covenant between God, the holy Spirit and ourselves. Will you recognize me by the deer in the headlight look on my face? Because we in the Church of Christ do not believe in premillennialism, we believe that the new body will be preparation for heaven itself after the second coming. While it is ture that the mortal shall put on immotality, I see nothing in the scriptures that indicates we will lose our free will, since Jesus did not appear to lose his after the ressurection, or the momories he had while here. I understand the passages that deal with pain and suffering as being understood that from that point and time forward, things will be different, so we do not experience all the things we did while we were here. There will no longer be a reason to have tears.I understand the scriptures to say that sinlesness and perfection are a state of existence in Christ, regardless of where we might be. I dont see the perfected body removing our minds, free will or anything of that sort. That is ofcourse my opinion based on my study of the sriptures.If Luke sixteen is to be understood to be actual, as I believe it is, then in that existence, conversations were had where memories and experiences were brought to peoples attention. The exact words by Abraham to the rich man are, "REMEMBER thou in thy life time....." As I stated before and watching the things you write, not only with myself and Jaywill, your knowledge and experience in life and the scriptures is much more extensive than mine, even if we disagree in a few areas. It is impressive to me that you know these facts. There are some facts I probably dont want brought to my attention, even though they probably need to be. Thats unbelievable. Its amazing whathumans are capable of.You may very well be correct in the above statements. Thanks as always for your commentsD BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

think of it this way...life is hell for some people, death follows life therefore your already damned

Why should life be hell? It doesn't have to be hell. It is only hell because humans treat each other in this fashion.As for death, I believe it to be the end of our existence and our consciencesness which is much more of a comfort than being in agonizing torment for eternity. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan