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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 241 of 479 (492276)
12-29-2008 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by DevilsAdvocate
12-29-2008 6:40 PM


Caution, DA
The last line is uncalled for. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 6:40 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 7:19 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 242 of 479 (492278)
12-29-2008 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by AdminNosy
12-29-2008 7:06 PM


Re: Caution, DA
Rgr, I apologize. I just get a little fustrated being pidgeoned holed by some religious fundamentalists as being ignorant of there own world views. I don't mind religious discussions as long as people aren't trying to convert me every 5 seconds and they drop the condescending, self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude. Maybe I am just to simple-minded.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by AdminNosy, posted 12-29-2008 7:06 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 243 of 479 (492280)
12-29-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by DevilsAdvocate
12-29-2008 6:40 PM


If you've been there, done that, you obviously didn't get anything but a T-shirt to base your faith upon. Those that find God's salvation in Christ Jesus find much much more. We find that God rewards those that dilligently seek Him (Heb 11:6) by giving to us the gift of His Spirit (Luke 11:13, Acts 2:38).
I'm not trying to convert you. Only God can do that. Just show a little more respect to those who have found God's salvation as revealed in the Bible and in our hearts by faith, which is what this forum section is all about.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
Edited by John 10:10, : added sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 6:40 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 7:45 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 247 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 9:08 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 244 of 479 (492284)
12-29-2008 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by John 10:10
12-29-2008 7:31 PM


Let me play devils advocate for a minute.
Those that find God's salvation in Christ Jesus find much much more.
What if you're just finding the illusion of salvation in the words written by men...?
What if you are the one who has been lead down the wrong path, who then do you turn to when there is no scripture to lean your thoughts onto...?
What you seem to be suggesting is that those who do not believe the words in one particular book are wrong in their entire existance and that you, who faithfully believes what men wrote 2000 years ago, have some sort of higher status than us.
Arrogance, self-centerness, elitism...are these the hallmarks of the rightous...? Then you can keep it. If this is what God requires from His followers then He is worthless, like those who profess this.
I think admin should allow for DA's original accessment of you.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 7:31 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 245 of 479 (492285)
12-29-2008 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by onifre
12-29-2008 6:29 PM


Re degenerate
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
So again, the spiritual world, that we can't see or point to, has oxygen...? Yet it is not in any physical form...?
I'm confused.
Who says there will be no physical form?
I will walk by a river that has trees growing on both sides that bear 12 manner of fruit. In the new heaven and new earth.
You need to get some new books to read.
You been reading too much material for your jokes.
I will say a small one you need it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 6:29 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 8:01 PM ICANT has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 246 of 479 (492288)
12-29-2008 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by ICANT
12-29-2008 7:47 PM


Re: Re degenerate
Who says there will be no physical form?
Beautiful, now we're getting somewhere. So the spiritual world, where our souls will be, has physical form.
Do souls have physical forms too...?
This physical spiritual world, where is this located...?
You been reading too much material for your jokes.
I will say a small one you need it.
You keep dishing it out, I have no other choice but to write this stuff down.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 7:47 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 12-30-2008 6:46 AM onifre has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 247 of 479 (492293)
12-29-2008 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by John 10:10
12-29-2008 7:31 PM


If you've been there, done that, you obviously didn't get anything but a T-shirt to base your faith upon.
Ah, you see. You assume that I have not had the same level of faith you may have. However, you are sadly mistaken. I do not claim to know your level of religious faith or biblical knowledge please do not assume you know mine.
Those that find God's salvation in Christ Jesus find much much more.
I understand this all too well. I just do not agree that your claim to eternal life and the blessings of God are backed up by reality.
We find that God rewards those that dilligently seek Him (Heb 11:6) by giving to us the gift of His Spirit (Luke 11:13, Acts 2:38).
Yes, I know this. Also add Matthew 6:33 ","But seek ye first the kingdom of God,and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." to your list. Quoting scripture at someone who has studied Christian apologetics, hermenuetics, and biblical archaelogical and am critical of the authenticity of the Biblical text based on this evidence.
I'm not trying to convert you. Only God can do that.
It sure sounds that way, having been on the other side of the table myself.
Just show a little more respect to those who have found God's salvation as revealed in the Bible and in our hearts by faith, which is what this forum section is all about.
Respect goes both ways. Don't treat everyone here as an ignorant heathen with no understanding of the Bible.
I do not wish you nor anyone on this forum from atheist to Christian ill will.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 7:31 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 10:02 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 248 of 479 (492301)
12-29-2008 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by DevilsAdvocate
12-29-2008 9:08 PM


If the gift of eternal life was just my claim, it would be worthless. But the gift of eternal life is offered by Jesus as He declares in John 11,
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Maybe I wrong, but I believe you have been burned badly by some who call themselves Christians. But what do you find wrong with Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 9:08 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Huntard, posted 12-30-2008 2:59 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 249 of 479 (492303)
12-29-2008 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by ICANT
12-29-2008 3:54 PM


Re: Perfect
Nowhere is the word heaven mentioned in Matthew 7:14.
This is a complete dodge and you know it. What are they talking about if Matt 7:13-14 is not talking about the narrow gate to salvation and the wide road to destruction?
Neither is hell mentioned in Matthew 7:13.
Another complete dodge. Those passages refer to destruction of those that do not pass through the narrow gate. Are you trying to say that there is a third option besides Heaven and hell?
When He gets to 7:14 He is still speaking to His disciples. He is not speaking to lost, unsaved people. He is speaking to born again scripturally baptized believers in Him.
It doesn't matter who Jesus was speaking to in Matt 7:13-14. The message that he delivered in this scripture is clear. The way through to Heaven is a narrow gate and few shall pass through it. So, yes, Jesus IS talking about how many will make it to heaven and how many won't and the message is perfectly crystal clear. Few will make it into Heaven.
I would say today there are very, very few that find the narrow way.
So you do agree with me. Few will find the narrow way.
Please produce a verse of scripture in the Bible that makes this statement.
I already have. Several times now and I will not retract it. Matthew 7:13-14 is perfectly clear and makes my point regardless of who Jesus was speaking to when he said it.
In a previous post I asked you to produce the scripture that says that there WILL be more in heaven than there will be in hell. You have not done this and your calculations and assumptions about babies do not count. Quote the scripture that supports your position or accept the fact that Matthew 7:13-14 supports mine.
Glad to help you with your journey. I have also learned quite a bit through our exchanges.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 3:54 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ICANT, posted 12-30-2008 8:36 AM caldron68 has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 250 of 479 (492306)
12-29-2008 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ICANT
12-29-2008 4:13 PM


Re: Re sinless
Where did I say anything about standing in line.
If I remember correctly I said I saw myself standing at the Great White Throne judgment and would see those of my friends, loved ones, co-workers, and people I had met day by day and never told them about Jesus. That I would see them cast into the lake of fire and this would make me very miserable.
Now if this is not correct please reference the message you are pulling your information from.
I'm sorry I did not quote your statement verbatim, but I thought what you were saying was perfectly clear. You're nit-picking details that don't matter. Does it really matter whether you were standing in a line or not? Doesn't standing in front of the Great White Throne conjure up images of Heaven?
The point I was trying to make is still perfectly valid. Those that accept Jesus Christ as their Load and Savior will be accepted into Heaven, regardless of whether they were murderers or rapists on Earth or not.
The hypocrisy still stands. People that are guilty of only one thing (not recognizing Jesus Christ as their Savior) will not be allowed into Heaven and the axe-murderer who accepts Jesus before he enters the gas chamber is allowed into Heaven.
Cheers
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 12-30-2008 9:04 AM caldron68 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 251 of 479 (492313)
12-30-2008 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by caldron68
12-28-2008 12:26 PM


Re: Re sinless
Caldron writes:
I see your point Bertot, and you are correct, we don't have God's perspective. What we do have is his written word, and the written word supports my central statement. We have to make assumptions about the true nature of God in order to claim that there is a contradiction in my statement.
Where did I say we dont have Gods perspective,ofcourse we do, that is what you are complaining about, what Gods decisions are or are not. Caldroun you cant make any asumptions about the nature of God, unless he gives you his perspective. Even when he dos you have no way to condemn or citizise it, that the point. Making assumptions about the true nature of God will lead you right back to the point that you are inadequate to make those determinations. Bam.
Then you know my perspective and understand why this decision (to believe) is one that is very hard to make. God punishes the scientific mind and gives a pass to the ignorant. God gives full pass to the serial killer and condemns the Einsteins of this world to hell. Ignorance is held in higher regard than rational thinking. In this system Adolf Hitler might be in Heaven and Stephen Hawking might not.
Faith, honesty, trust and love are held in a higher regard than, density or intelligence. God already has all the intelligence anyone needs. Bam, 98 FM, the voice of the haeartland. Wapner at 3:30, definately Judge wapner.
Unfortunately, the line that ICANT was standing in also included those that had committed real crimes. Murder, rape, incest, genocide, you name it. As long as those people believed in Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, they got a free pass into Heaven. Does this sound fair to you? What perspective could we possible gain that would resolve this obvious bias?
If you simply understood that man does not have the ability to save himself from an eternal Judge that is himself justice, mercy, reward and punishment. The qualites of Mercy and Justice flow from his nature and are therfore the final and only valid way to determine what is fair. "Mama said life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get."
Not wrong. Does Satan exist or doesn't he? Doe he influence our lives or doesn't he? Christian belief holds that he does and thus the deck is most certainly stacked against us. Why not just leave it to freewill? Isn't there enough evil in the world? Did God need to throw Satan in the mix too?
So, I will agree that the deck is not stacked against us if you will agree that Satan either does not exist or that he has no influence upon our lives.
You have a way of making simple things difficult. There is no majic required to ignore satan. In the desert the Lord did it by feeding him Gods words, three times. The scriptures says he went away for a season. The scripture also says,, "Draw nigh unto God and he will draw nigh unto you, RESIST (free will) the devil AND he will FLEE from you. No majic potions, just good ole free will.
So we can eliminate freewill from the equation then. What we're left with is lust and those other things that draw us toward evil. This essentially is what I was talking about previously. Let's just call it man's nature. This nature is either influenced by outside forces (Satan) or was programmed into us by God himself. We are tempted by visual stimulation (you decide what that is). Why could we have not been pre-programmed to be repulsed by that same visual stimulation?
How do you eliminate reality from the situation. By design or creation man has free will. This is his NATURE. Yes the scripture says, We are by nature the children of wrath", yet overcoming that nature is as easy as a simple decision to do or not do a certain thing. Christ did not spout incantations or throw holy water at Satan, he simply told him by Gods word to please go away I dont enjoy your company and you have bad breath.
I respectfully disagree. If we have the same amount of ability to do the right thing as the wrong, why does man tend toward the wrong? God knows that this is the case. The Bible supports it. There must be some reason why this is the case and if so, God could have corrected the problem in the first place.
He tends twords the wrong because he can. Free will is a 50/50 proposition. You would need to show some part of the definition of free will, lacking in its parts to demonstrate that it is not what it is, the nature of man nothwithstanding. If in any give situation it can be demonstrated that a right decision could have been made verses a wrong one, the the point is proven. Free will is exacally what it says it is.
Thank you for your delightful post.
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by caldron68, posted 12-28-2008 12:26 PM caldron68 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 252 of 479 (492319)
12-30-2008 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by onifre
12-29-2008 3:47 PM


Re: Re sinless
Onifre writes:
Then neither is the interpretations of MEN that God is good or possesses any goodness to begin with. God has never stated this, this has been people of faiths assertion.
Whoo hoo the drug boy is back. Weeeell, I dont know what to think after our previous falling out and your refusal to talk to me any longer, (waving hand in an efiminate fashion), can I take your return as genuine?, Ha ha. My reference to the picture that accompanies Rahain's name, as Peter Pan was made in jest, the fella is tough enough to know I was just kidding.
Onfire, come on man you can do better than that, we are proceeding on the assumption that God does exists and that these are his edicts. From there we are making a decision based on what the totality of scripture has to say about his nature to determine whether those actions would be valid. The complaint from Caldron is made from the pages of the Bible, therefore the entirity would be required to make a decision. Lets say Satan was the one making these decision, then we could conclude he does not have the right because he is limited in knowldege and power, but because God is not, according to the scriptures, he therefore has the right.
Let me guess why, because gays want to get married...?
If not then explain why you conclude this from the society you currently observe.
Do I need to instruct such an intelligent fella such as yourself, to understand that it is only a matter of time and some slick lawyer to point out that we have no right to tell this person or that person that they CANNOT, NOT do such a thing. What is the present principle, "As long as it doesnt hurt you or someone else,, its ok to participate in it", or something like that. Think about it, in a democratic society, what is preventing someone from doing this, please tell me.
What human law presently exists that cannot be changed to accomodate this type of behavior. Its just a matter of time.
Thats only if one considers himself a slug to begin with. We do not judge God, we judge the words written on paper( or hemp ) by men about God.
Then your judgement is subjective nonsense, since you have no way to proceed for you to evaluate or condemn others actions. All they have to say is, I disagree and you are in the dark as much as they are. You are like the little mouse on the wheel or a person on a stationary bike, going NOWHERE really fast.
This is however the same human perspective that you use to establish Gods goodness to begin with. So when Christians say God is good, are they full of shit too...?
Your a mean little peckerwood arent you boy? Yeah your right, it is a human perspective, its just that ours is based on evidence and reason that does not involve invalid reasoning and silly conclusions. Are you admitting that you are full of shit?
"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
Why heck, thats just plain ignorant, aint it?
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 3:47 PM onifre has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 253 of 479 (492320)
12-30-2008 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by onifre
12-29-2008 4:41 PM


Re: Re sinless
Onfire writes:
Lets not patronize each other ICANT. I know very well what is written within the contents of the Christian Bible. That was not my point.
However, on to your point, you still have to place trust that the men who wrote those words did not lie to begin with, that is not faith in Jesus, that is faith in man.
If you can provide proper verification about the writings of the Bible and attribute those words directly to Jesus, outside of faith, then perhaps you would have a good point. As I understand it though, Jesus left not a single document written by him directly.
ICANT. With the introduction of straggler and Onifre into the this discusssion, they are now trying to take the thread back to a point that constitues another discussion. The reason they do this, is, they know that they cannot DEAL stricly with the scriptures and thier totality to try and find contradiction in the principles being discussed. The totality of scripture on these subjects corroborates that an eternal God with infinite wisdom and power, not only has a right in making such decisions, but also that he is free from any finite judgement.
This move by them is meant as an distraction fromt the main point or topic of the thread. "Why did God forgive our sins."
Here is the opening post.
If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" (himself??) down to earth in order to cleanse mankind of his sins.. When, in fact, he knew that man would sin again???? Does his action make any sense to anyone? How about this? Maybe if he wanted to free us of sin.. Do it, and then say, “OK, everyone come on into heaven! There is no point in making you “suffer” your way into heaven. Just come on up and give praise to me for all eternity.” After all, doesn't He want all of his "children" with him in heaven?
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 4:41 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by ICANT, posted 12-30-2008 9:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 259 by Straggler, posted 12-30-2008 10:20 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 254 of 479 (492321)
12-30-2008 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by John 10:10
12-29-2008 10:02 PM


John 10:10 writes:
If the gift of eternal life was just my claim, it would be worthless.
ANY claim without supporting evidence is worthless, the person making it is irrelevant.
But the gift of eternal life is offered by Jesus as He declares in John 11,
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
I have a few problems with this.
1) There is no evidence Jesus said this.
2) There is no evidence that this is true, even if he did say it.
3) There are numerous other religions that claim this, why are they wrong and this one right?
But what do you find wrong with Jesus?
As a character in the bible, not so much. My problem is that there is no evidence he said and did anything the bible claims. We are to take this on faith. Then again the problem arises, why is this one right, and the others wrong. When there is no supporting evidence for any of these claims, how are we to determine which are correct?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 10:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 10:25 AM Huntard has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 255 of 479 (492326)
12-30-2008 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by onifre
12-29-2008 8:01 PM


Re degenerate
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Beautiful, now we're getting somewhere. So the spiritual world, where our souls will be, has physical form.
I am not sure where that is we're getting too.
When you say spiritual world, are you talking about where the born again child of God will reside and the confirmed son of the devil will reside or did you have something else in mind?
What do you mean by soul?
Are you talking about what is mentioned in Genesis when God breathed into his nostrils and the man became a living soul.
or
Are you talking about the spirit of man like most people who do not understand what they are talking about when they mention soul.
onifre writes:
Do souls have physical forms too...?
This physical spiritual world, where is this located...?
Again I need to know what your are talking about before I can answer.
God Bless, and good luck today.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 8:01 PM onifre has not replied

  
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