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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 271 of 479 (492398)
12-30-2008 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Huntard
12-30-2008 1:41 PM


Would you mind pointing out what evidence Jesus himself left behind? I have heard of none.
Would you mind backing that up with evidence? This is mere speculation on your part. It assumes it's true, to then declare it to be true. That's not how it works. Again, you can visit me, you can touch me, you can see my computer, I can show you my account. What physical evidence did Jesus leave behind?
The evidence that Jesus left behind that skeptics and unbelievers will never understand nor accept started ocurring on Pentecost 10 days after Jesus ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33-36). Pentecost has been ocurring now for 2000 years to those who repent according to Acts 2:38 and honor Jesus as Lord, "and the Lord has been adding to their number day by day those who are being saved" (Acts 2:47).
If the skeptics and unbelievers at this forum want to believe in no God, no devils, no heaven, no hell, no sin to repent from, no salvation, that is your choice. God does not go against your will, but He does make some willing to choose Him. I'm very thankful I'm one of those that chose Him.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Huntard, posted 12-30-2008 1:41 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by bluescat48, posted 12-30-2008 11:27 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 276 by Huntard, posted 12-31-2008 3:08 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 278 by lyx2no, posted 12-31-2008 8:45 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 272 of 479 (492399)
12-30-2008 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by fjp8000
12-30-2008 5:59 PM


Re: Bible quotations...God
Guys, it has been a while since I first posted the question "Why did God forgive our sins" and I must say that I was very surprised at all the comments. But, I must tell you that I find it amusing that some of you quote the bible as if you personally verified its truth.
I find it more surprising that most people at this forum have no need for God to forgive them of their sins. Yes, some of us have personally verified the Bible's truth, and have received God's forgiveness for our sins. But it's not my job to convince you of this truth. My job is simply to tell you what God has done for me. Only God can convict sinners to lay down their sins and choose Him.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by fjp8000, posted 12-30-2008 5:59 PM fjp8000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by fjp8000, posted 12-30-2008 9:55 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
fjp8000
Junior Member (Idle past 5566 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-17-2007


Message 273 of 479 (492402)
12-30-2008 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by John 10:10
12-30-2008 9:02 PM


Re: Bible quotations...God
Really? How to you know that most people do not need god to forgive them for their sins????? You got a direct link to a god?
People verified the truth of the bible? Again..Really? Just how was this done?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 9:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 9:24 AM fjp8000 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 274 of 479 (492409)
12-30-2008 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by John 10:10
12-30-2008 8:44 PM


The evidence that Jesus left behind that skeptics and unbelievers will never understand nor accept started ocurring on Pentecost 10 days after Jesus ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33-36). Pentecost has been ocurring now for 2000 years to those who repent according to Acts 2:38 and honor Jesus as Lord, "and the Lord has been adding to their number day by day those who are being saved" (Acts 2:47).
Hearsay. I believe what Huntard was asking was for physical evidence.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 8:44 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 275 of 479 (492412)
12-31-2008 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Straggler
12-30-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Re sinless
It was you that started down the path of absolute morality again. It is you who has been unable to defend this quite evidently impractical and nonsensical position again.
Its the ole cart before the horse syndrome. If you will remember Straggler, the initial contentions had to do with, a certain thing God did in the scriptures, ie, killing the innocence in the land of Cannann, punishing someone in hell for an eternity, etc. Absolute morality from a Biblical perspective, in the context of the same place the original information was obtained, was discussed in this connection. Whether God exists or whether absolute morality exists, is not in question in the Biblical context. IT DOES.
Using the scripture to answer the original question or questions as, "Why did God forgive our sins"?, is neither impractical or nonsensical. Where else would the answer come from to discuss the reasons for the original questions or contentions in the first place.
If you are going to condemn the Biblical God for his actions described in the scriptures, wouldnt it be reasonalbe to look in the same place, for explanations of those questions. Oh stupid me.
Whether the scriptures are internally consistent or not has little bearing on whether or not the idea that a God that already knows everything sends down his "son" to cleanse us of sins that he knows we will continue to perpetrate regardless of this "sacrifice".
Given the concept taught in the scriptures, that God is infinte in knowledge, wisdom and morality, you can still say that it has no bearing on the issue. Your kidding right?
Also, thanks for the vote of confidence about the scriptures being consistent. Further, you corroborate the validity and reality of free will, with your statement, that, "we WILL continue to perpetrate regardless of the sacrifice". This implies that a person has a choice to do otherwise. Your problems in this context is non-resolvable, unless one does as you and others have and dismiss the content and context of free will. You validate the need for Gods mercy in the form of a sacrifice.
The same context that explains that God did this or that in the scriptures, makes it very clear that he possess the knowledge to exercise this type of authority. If God does indeed exist and the scriptures in the body of the OT and NT are his Word,one may certainly be justified to ask why he did this or that, if they are willing to look at the entire context.
"God says"......????????
Surely this is the point that Onfire and I are making. The bible is only what "God says" if you assume that God actually said any of it. Quite an assumption!!
Your ASSUMPTION is that God is evil for some of his actions as described in the Bible. You are assuming the possibilty of the existence of God in doing this. Question. On what do you base your ASSUMPTION, that he is evil?. Yes you are right, that is quite an assumption. You have no way of knowing what evil or good is in the first place. Your actions as a human being contradict anything that you would qualify you to know what is evil or good is, or the standard to let you out of the starting gates.
Your assumption is that God is evil, for this or that and they are baseless as has been demonstrated. "Man says".....?????. God is only evil if you ASSUME that man has any way of justifying his actions. He does not, it is an exercise in futility.
People who assume that the bible is the word of God can have all the conviction in the world but that no more makes it the word of God than it makes The Lord of The Rings the word of Gandalf.
This is the type of double standard reasoning that designates God as evil, that is both nonsensical and silly. Assumption is the watchword for the Atheist and Agnostic. It erroneously ASSUMES that it/they have a valid method of establishing a standard of morality, and on the basis of this enormous ASSUMPTION, proceed to condemn not only the actions of others, but others assumptions that are based in reality and good evidence. Sounds like a double standard to me.
Asumptions concerning the "evil" of God, no more make them valid, than if we are to assume you have logical and valid way of establishing morality in the first place.
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Straggler, posted 12-30-2008 10:20 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-31-2008 9:55 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 287 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2008 11:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 276 of 479 (492415)
12-31-2008 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by John 10:10
12-30-2008 8:44 PM


John 10:10 writes:
The evidence that Jesus left behind that skeptics and unbelievers will never understand nor accept started ocurring on Pentecost 10 days after Jesus ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33-36).
And again your evidence consists of baseless claims. There is nothing to even indicate that this EVER happened.
Pentecost has been ocurring now for 2000 years to those who repent according to Acts 2:38 and honor Jesus as Lord, "and the Lord has been adding to their number day by day those who are being saved" (Acts 2:47).
And other religions have equally long running, if not longer, traditions. Why are yours correct and theirs not?
If the skeptics and unbelievers at this forum want to believe in no God, no devils, no heaven, no hell, no sin to repent from, no salvation, that is your choice.
As there is no evidence for ANY of those things, I think the choice is made very simple.
God does not go against your will, but He does make some willing to choose Him.
More speculation. There is no evidence he has ever done this.
I'm very thankful I'm one of those that chose Him.
Are you sure you chose the right one? What is your evidence for saying you did? Could you not be duped by an evil entity that wanted to hide the truth of, say, Islam from you? Why is your religion correct, yet others false?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 8:44 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 9:35 AM Huntard has replied

  
b00tleg
Junior Member (Idle past 4520 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 08-18-2008


Message 277 of 479 (492422)
12-31-2008 8:26 AM


What sin or sins were forgiven and when did this occur?

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2008 8:59 AM b00tleg has not replied
 Message 284 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 9:42 AM b00tleg has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 278 of 479 (492424)
12-31-2008 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by John 10:10
12-30-2008 8:44 PM


Blessed is the Light of Landru
I'm very thankful I'm one of those that chose Him.
You're not of the Body.

Don't do that Dave.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 8:44 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2008 9:04 AM lyx2no has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 279 of 479 (492426)
12-31-2008 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by b00tleg
12-31-2008 8:26 AM


bOOTleg writes:
What sin or sins were forgiven and when did this occur?
Please excuse me for noticing, but it appears you have fallen straight into a box of pins, I would get that taken care of as soon as possible. No thanks necessary, I here to help. Wow that looks pinful, oh I mean painful
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by b00tleg, posted 12-31-2008 8:26 AM b00tleg has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 280 of 479 (492428)
12-31-2008 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by lyx2no
12-31-2008 8:45 AM


Re: Blessed is the Light of Landru
Quisp writes to Jihn10:10:
You're not of the Body.
Where in the world did that come from and what the heck does it mean? You established your conclusion on what basis?
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by lyx2no, posted 12-31-2008 8:45 AM lyx2no has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by petrophysics1, posted 12-31-2008 9:35 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 281 of 479 (492430)
12-31-2008 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by fjp8000
12-30-2008 9:55 PM


Re: Bible quotations...God
Really? How to you know that most people do not need god to forgive them for their sins????? You got a direct link to a god?
John 16:13-15 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."
Yes, those who honor Jesus as Lord do have a direct link to God.
I said "most people at this forum" do not need God to forgive them for their sins. If you are not one of the most, then welcome to the family of the forgiven.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by fjp8000, posted 12-30-2008 9:55 PM fjp8000 has not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 479 (492431)
12-31-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Dawn Bertot
12-31-2008 9:04 AM


Re: Blessed is the Light of Landru
It is a reference to a Star Trek episode which examines a religion on another planet. Not unlike the one you follow.
I thought it was very funny. But then again, I regard Star Trek as more entertaining and philosophically more profound than the bible.
P.S. God isn't going to forgive your sins. You are going to have to pay for each and everyone of them. The greatest SIN is telling others you have the ANSWER. For that you will pay big time.
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.
Edited by petrophysics1, : typos

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2008 9:04 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 283 of 479 (492432)
12-31-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Huntard
12-31-2008 3:08 AM


Are you sure you chose the right one? What is your evidence for saying you did? Could you not be duped by an evil entity that wanted to hide the truth of, say, Islam from you? Why is your religion correct, yet others false?
Yes, there are many religious deceptions, Islam being one of many. But the true and living God is explained by the writer of Heb 1:1-3,
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Huntard, posted 12-31-2008 3:08 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by bluescat48, posted 12-31-2008 5:03 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 308 by Huntard, posted 01-01-2009 2:57 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 284 of 479 (492433)
12-31-2008 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by b00tleg
12-31-2008 8:26 AM


What sin or sins were forgiven and when did this occur?
Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by b00tleg, posted 12-31-2008 8:26 AM b00tleg has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 285 of 479 (492436)
12-31-2008 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Dawn Bertot
12-31-2008 1:01 AM


Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
Whether God exists or whether absolute morality exists, is not in question in the Biblical context. IT DOES.
I know this is slightly off-topic but jabs like this require a qualified answer.
Does absolute morality exist even in the Biblical perspective? In analyzing all of the text of the Bible, both OT and NT, this seems not to be the case.
First, we have to define terms. What is absolute morality? Basically it is the determination (regardless of by whom)that certain actions, behaviors, attitudes, etc are always right (determined to be acceptable regardless of by whom) or wrong (determine to be not acceptable regardless of by whom) regardless of the context of situation in which they are acted.
So what is relative morality? Moral relativism is the position that moral truth (determination of what is acceptable/right and not acceptable/wrong) itself is derived and subject to cultural, historical, societal and personal preferences and influences and is not necessarily absolute in its scope.
What is interesting is that one does not have to be religious (much less a Christian) to be a moral absolutist and not all atheists or agnostics are moral relativists. The position of atheism inherently says nothing on the subject of morality and thus leaves it adherents up to themselves to determine what system of morality they will adopt. In fact, many atheists and agnostics (like myself) are not moral relativists or absolutists but rather there is a third option, moral universalism or objectivism.
So what is moral universalism? It the position that a universal system of ethics does exist which (in the case of naturalism) has evolved (and continues to evolve to grant more rights and freedoms to all human beings as our understanding of humanity and the universe around us increases) by means of human cognitive rationalism and has been accepted by the vast majority of modern society. Universalism acknowledges that certain actions are determined to be acceptable or not acceptable to all people regardless of their background, ethnicity, etc (i.e. the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights). It is also accepted (non-absolutist moral universalism) that the context of the situation (as opposed to absolutism which disregards the context) does determine the acceptance or non-acceptance of certain (though not all) human behavior i.e. is it acceptable that countries go to war for self-protection vice out of a desire to increase their power, wealth, natural resources, ethnic hatred, etc.
So let's move on know that we know the ground rules of what the major divisions of moral systems are. You say that the Bible teaches absolute morality. Let's discuss that shall we.
Christians (such as you) claim that God's moral dictates are perfect, immutable and absolute. Correct? Than how is it that God creates over 700 commandments for the Jews and the rules of morality outlined by Jesus and his disciples/apostles incorporating rules for slavery, stoning of children for back talking their parents, physically abusing your children, stoning criminals, ethnocide by slaughtering and pillaging their neighbors, infanticide (killing babies and young children) and other God commanded or condoned heinous acts that many modern Christians would now consider to be antiquated, barbaric, heinous and totally unacceptable in today's modern society. Why are these God given commands now unacceptable? How is your system of "absolute" rules by God in the Bible, unchanging? How is this moral system not relativistic? To me it speaks volumes that Christians cannot even decide amongst themselves, which rules in the Bible to agree should apply, yet they claim their system of morality to be absolute and immutable.
Indeed, I would state that your system of morality is intrinsically more relative than the one I claim.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2008 1:01 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by jaywill, posted 12-31-2008 10:17 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 291 by Bailey, posted 12-31-2008 2:50 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
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