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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 301 of 479 (492522)
01-01-2009 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by jaywill
12-31-2008 10:17 AM


Re: Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
The rules which I think are most important are two:
Boldening added by me.
If that statement doesn't verify the very point Devilsadvocate was making I don't know what does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jaywill, posted 12-31-2008 10:17 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 9:35 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 302 of 479 (492524)
01-01-2009 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jaywill
12-31-2008 1:16 PM


Re: Re sinless
I read that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoseoever would believe into Him should not perish but have eternal life
Gave? In what sense? Are not God and Jesus hanging in heaven together as we write?
What exactly was sacrificed? What did God lose that cannot be replaced?
Where does it say that God does not love the "whoseovers" who decide that they don't want anything to do with the Son of God ? For one reason or another they want nothing to do with God's Son. But I never read that they are not loved because of that choice
Then you should talk to ICANT and Bertot regarding their lake of fire thing.
You seem to be saying that the love of God would FORCE them to be in His kingdom against their decision. Is that how you view God's love should operate ? He should FORCE them that do not believe into the Son of God to HAVE the Son of God anyway?
Not at all. No forcing is being proposed. Clear information and an informed decision on the part of humanity rather than a reliance on faith and the other irrational tricks that are the hallmark of deceit.
If there is a choice make it clear and let freewill take it's true course. Don't make the whole nature of the choice look like a big con to anyone who insists on using the very "God given" rational faculties we are blessed with.
The eternal life is just the Son of God Himself, in case you didn't realize it. So how is divine love manifested in that God forces someone to have Christ as divine life when that person wants to refuse to have Christ as divine life?
No forcing. Just open and clear choices that are not shrouded in the fog of faith.
I am talking here about clear cases of the one deciding not to believe into Christ, he or she rejects Christ for himself/ herself.
And you chosse not to believe in the Hindu Gods. Based on what? reason? Faith? I choose not to believe in any Gods based on reason.
there is no more reason to believe in your God or your Christ than there is any one of the other multitude of Gods.
Do you also feel that the love of man for fellowmen should empty all the prisons, and for love's sake, let every criminal go unpunished ? If I break into your home and slay your family to steal a TV, and we go to court, what should be my defense? Should I have my attorney argue that if the judge really LOVES me he should simply let me walk free?
No. But the punishment should fit the crime. I am not even sure what crime I have committed but apparently I am born sinful!!!
Eternal damnation because my most distant ancestor ate some apple is hard to reconcile with a being that is supposedly the epitome of forgiveness and love.
In Gods place I would not condemn anyone for this "crime".
Does that make me more compassionate, forgiving and loving than your God?
Or is my compassion evil because it opposes God's will?
Perhaps you will object that the sins are no so serious. Keep in mind that the thief, the rapist, the extortioner, the kidnapper all fail to see why their particular crime is taken so seriously. If they were to write the laws, they, no doubt, would place far lesser emphasis on the justice due concerning their particular crime.
All of these criminals fail the test of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Thus they are morally in the wrong, not to mention socially disruptive and dangerous, regardless of what they may think.
The thief would legislate that stealing is of course not too bad of a crime. In fact it is perfectly acceptable behavior.
Then the thief should expect to be consistently robbed by those more powerful than he.
And how does a happy and peaceful kingdom exists when some of the participants accept the King and others reject Him and His authority? How is it lumping them altogether forever is a harmonious and blessed situation?
Some of the greatest advances in human society have taken place when the populace at large overthrow tyrants and despots. Democracy, freedom and the rule of law as applied to all.
You assume your God is good despite many actions to the contrary. many actions which fail the 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' test.
I don't see that God stops ever loving the sinner. I see that God must bear the sadness that some out of their own decision want nothing to do with His righteousness and His reign of eternal life.
Given evidence and a clear choice many more would take that path.
If that is what he really wants then why hide behind the shroud of faith that results in the very opposite?
Or do you feel that God should GIVE UP His rightoeusness to be PERMISSIVE that anything goes in His creation.
If it really is his creation then I would suggest that he makes the choices and punishments absolutely clear with no silly reliance on things like faith which are very open to abuse by those who wish to deceive. I would also suggest that he decides whether or not he is a forgiving God or a retributional one. Because at the moment the whole thing is very contradictory and frankly unclear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 12-31-2008 1:16 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 9:50 AM Straggler has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 303 of 479 (492551)
01-01-2009 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Straggler
01-01-2009 5:30 AM


Re: Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
The most important Christ commandments are three:
(1) LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. (Matt 22:37)
(2) LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF (Matt 22:39)
(3) Love one another, even as I (Christ) have loved you (John 13:34)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 5:30 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-01-2009 12:30 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 311 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 5:55 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 304 of 479 (492555)
01-01-2009 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Straggler
01-01-2009 5:53 AM


Re: Re sinless
If it really is his creation then I would suggest that he makes the choices and punishments absolutely clear with no silly reliance on things like faith which are very open to abuse by those who wish to deceive. I would also suggest that he decides whether or not he is a forgiving God or a retributional one. Because at the moment the whole thing is very contradictory and frankly unclear.
Man doesn't get to make suggestions to God.
Man gets to enter into relationship with God, thereby participating with God in His creation and redemption process.
PS - God has made our choices and punishments very clear (Rom 6:23)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 5:53 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 6:21 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 305 of 479 (492569)
01-01-2009 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by John 10:10
01-01-2009 9:35 AM


Re: Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
The most important Christ commandments are three:
(1) LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. (Matt 22:37)
(2) LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF (Matt 22:39)
(3) Love one another, even as I (Christ) have loved you (John 13:34)
That is all well and good and most decent human beings would not disagree with #2. But how do you square #1 and #3 that with these verses:
Exodus 29 writes:
Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck (i.e. killed) all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle.
Exodus 20:20-21 writes:
If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
Exodus 32:27-28 writes:
He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'. So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
Leviticus 26:22 writes:
I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
Numbers 11:33 writes:
And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague
Numbers 15:32-36 writes:
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Numbers 21:3 writes:
And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Numbers 25:4, 8-9 writes:
And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel...And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Numbers 31:17-18 writes:
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.... 32And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep... And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him(sex slaves?).
And that is a mere fraction of the attrocities displayed and commanded by your loving god from the first four books of your holy book.
What a loving God!!! If this is love, what is hate? Really, you have to be kidding me?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 9:35 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 1:09 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 306 of 479 (492572)
01-01-2009 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by DevilsAdvocate
01-01-2009 12:30 PM


Re: Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
That is all well and good and most decent human beings would not disagree with #2. But how do you square #1 and #3 that with these verses:
I don't expect unbelievers at this forum can understand the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. But you will one day as you stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-01-2009 12:30 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 307 of 479 (492576)
01-01-2009 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 10:02 PM


That is the point I am making, where is the evidence to support the Bible?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 10:02 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 308 of 479 (492580)
01-01-2009 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 9:35 AM


Yes, there are many religious deceptions, Islam being one of many.
Not according to them. Why should I believe you, yet assume they are incorrect?
But the true and living God is explained by the writer of Heb 1:1-3,
What's your evidence that this is the case?
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Baseless assertion.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
More of the same.
When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
And some more asserting.
Let me ask you a simple question. Why are you correct? And please, bring real evidence.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 9:35 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 309 of 479 (492581)
01-01-2009 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 7:19 PM


John 10:10 writes:
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
What's your evidence for this being true? I can assert a lot of things too, that doesn't mean that without supporting evidence, that they are true.
Wrong! You can use to the Bible to prove itself.
So, you agree Thor exists then, it says so in the edda. If not, why does it work for your religion, yet not for any other?
The Bible has proven itself over and over again by the prophetic word that has been spoken and fulfilled from Genesis to Revelation
No it hasn't. I've followed plenty of prophecy debates on this site and in all those debates, not once has there been a prophecy that was shown to be true.
As Peter has said, "You do well to pay attention."
You do indeed. So, now please provide real evidence.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 7:19 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:31 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 310 of 479 (492584)
01-01-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 10:02 PM


So you equate Greek mythology with the fulfilled prophesies of the Bible. Jesus fulfilled over 360 prophesies which foretold of His coming as the Messiah [http://bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf]. How many more prophesies would Jesus have had to fulfill by your standard of evidence before there was enough proof evidence that Jesus was and is the Messiah?
And your evidence that Jesus did indeed fulfil all these prophecies, and they weren't added later to make him the messiah is? I thought so, non-existent. Now do you see what Bluescat and I are getting at? All you do is make claims, that can only be said to be true, if you accept them to be true.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 10:02 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 311 of 479 (492598)
01-01-2009 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by John 10:10
01-01-2009 9:35 AM


Re: Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
The most important Christ commandments are three:
Who decides which are the most important?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 9:35 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:35 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 312 of 479 (492603)
01-01-2009 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by John 10:10
01-01-2009 9:50 AM


Re: Re sinless
Straggler writes:
If it really is his creation then I would suggest that he makes the choices and punishments absolutely clear with no silly reliance on things like faith which are very open to abuse by those who wish to deceive. I would also suggest that he decides whether or not he is a forgiving God or a retributional one. Because at the moment the whole thing is very contradictory and frankly unclear.
Man doesn't get to make suggestions to God.
Man gets to enter into relationship with God, thereby participating with God in His creation and redemption process.
And that exactly is the problem. You say he wants all humans to follow that path to salvation and redemption. And yet he relies on methods of achieving this that are inevitably going to fail.
A reliance on faith has the following problems:
1) Anybody who insists on using the ability for rational thought that God supposedly gave us is going to be sceptical and thus fail.
2) The reliance on faith is completely open to abuse by those who equally advocate their own deity on the same faith basis. How are we to know which deity to put our faith in? All equally claim that faith in their particualr entity is the road to salvation and each has their own holy book to justify this claim?
If God really wants us to seek salvation through Jesus Chris there is little doubt that his methods are failing. There are several billion non-Christians in the world who are about as culturally unlikely to seek Christ as you are to suddenly convert to Hinduism.
Whether he accepts or wants my advice or not I think it is worth pointing out to God that his current methodology of getting people into heaven and avoiding the whole lake of fire for eternity scenario is failing quite badly.
If he really wants most of us to get to heaven he should maybe rethink his recruitment strategy. That's all. Just a suggestion. Take it or leave it.
PS - God has made our choices and punishments very clear (Rom 6:23)
Yes and apparently there are equally clear choices and punishments in the Koran. No doubt other religious books make it equally clear as to why they specifically should be followed, and the punishments for not doing so, too.
How am I to decide which religion to follow given that they all, including yours, claim to be the only true path to salvation?
Seriously one wrong choice and that lake of fire (or whatever punishment the other potentially correct religion describes) is waiting for me. It is a very big decision and I hope your God (if he does exist) can understand why this whole reliance on faith he has decided to use to test people makes the decision unnecessarily open to error for those of us not of an innately Christian background.
If I become a Christian will I burn in the Islamic version of hell for all eternity? How can I find out? Oh what to do. What to do.
Edited by Straggler, : Spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 9:50 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:51 PM Straggler has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 313 of 479 (492605)
01-01-2009 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Huntard
01-01-2009 3:05 PM


I've followed plenty of prophecy debates on this site and in all those debates, not once has there been a prophecy that was shown to be true.
Prophesy - Psa 22:16-18 "They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots."
Fulfilled Prophesy - Mt 27:35 "And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots."
Prophesy - John 10:17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again."
Fulfilled Prophesy - John 20:19-20 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Prophesy - Matt 24:1-2 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
Fulfilled Prophesy - To conclude, when he (Titus) entirely demolished the rest of the city, and overthrew its walls, he left these towers as a monument of his good. [Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Chapter IX, Para 1, recording what happened in 70 AD]
These are just a few of the 360+ prophesies concerning the first coming of Jesus and their fulfillment. But Jesus prophesied that He will come again.
Prophesy - John 14:2-3 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
Fulfilled Prophesy - very soon
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Huntard, posted 01-01-2009 3:05 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Huntard, posted 01-01-2009 6:33 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 314 of 479 (492607)
01-01-2009 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by John 10:10
01-01-2009 6:31 PM


Prophesy - Psa 22:16-18 "They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots."
Fulfilled Prophesy - Mt 27:35 "And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots."
Prophesy - John 10:17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again."
Fulfilled Prophesy - John 20:19-20 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Prophesy - Matt 24:1-2 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
Fulfilled Prophesy - To conclude, when he (Titus) entirely demolished the rest of the city, and overthrew its walls, he left these towers as a monument of his good. [Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Chapter IX, Para 1, recording what happened in 70 AD]
These are just a few of the 360+ prophesies concerning the first coming of Jesus and their fulfillment. But Jesus prophesied that He will come again.
Prophesy - John 14:2-3 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
Fulfilled Prophesy - very soon
And I asked this before. What is your evidence that these weren't simply added to the story?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:31 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:43 PM Huntard has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 315 of 479 (492608)
01-01-2009 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Straggler
01-01-2009 5:55 PM


Re: Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
Who decides which are the most important?
The Lord Jesus Christ does.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 5:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 6:44 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
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