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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 5 of 349 (493057)
01-05-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bailey
01-03-2009 10:46 AM


Re Demons
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes:
The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9).
Are you sure about the timing of this event?
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
This scripture nor any of those around it even hint that this took place immediately after Jesus' resurrection.
You got anything better than that?
Bailey writes:
Paul would not be too concerned about their teaching people in 1st Timothy 4:1.
I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
The word translated demons in most translations has no such definition.
transliteration daimonion.
Definition
1) the divine power, deity, divinity
2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
Bailey writes:
where do they come from?
Seems like somebody didn't like calling them devils.
Bailey writes:
Some might find this just an odd question of no real relevance, but some would find it very relevant because many teach that the Father cannot create anything evil.
Well someone that does not believe the Bible could come to the conclusion that God did not create evil.
Or someone who has cut this passage out of the Bible.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
But then there are Bibles that do not have the book of Isaiah in them.
Bailey writes:
Satan had to be an angel at some point.
He still is.
He was created an evil angel and he is still an evil angel.
Angel = transliteration aggelos.
Definition a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God.
Bailey writes:
as (apparently) he is not confined in hell at the moment.
He definitely is not confined to hell or the lake of fire at the moment.
I Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Sounds like he is footloose and fancy free to go about his business to me.
Bailey writes:
Anyone else have some ideas?
Why not let them be just what they are.
The evil messengers of the devil. Who was created by God to tempt you and I. So we could make choices in life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bailey, posted 01-03-2009 10:46 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-05-2009 8:41 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 9 by Bailey, posted 01-06-2009 10:52 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 10 by Bailey, posted 01-06-2009 11:10 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 01-10-2009 4:12 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 7 of 349 (493082)
01-05-2009 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate
01-05-2009 8:41 PM


Re Demons
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Just a philosophical thought.
I don't know if it is philosophical or not.
I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice.
If there was no evil what would the choice be?
Good, Good, or Good.
Therefore it was necessary for the devil and his messengera to exist. The only way for that to happen was for God to create them. It was also necessary for the first man to disobey God's rule for us to exist.
So those that don't like God's plan can tell Him how He should have done things when they meet Him.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-05-2009 8:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-06-2009 9:08 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 28 by Straggler, posted 01-10-2009 2:48 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 12 of 349 (493174)
01-06-2009 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by DevilsAdvocate
01-06-2009 9:08 AM


Re Demons
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I guess it depends on how do you define good and evil?
So if I define murder as good that makes it all right to commit murder. Is that what you are saying?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Especially from your statements it appears that God created both good and evil.
I quoted the scripture as well as you did that stated:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
It don't get stated any better than that.
That says "I the Lord create evil".
I believe He also stated what was evil and the punishment for evil deeds were. He did give a lot of rules to go by.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Also it sounds like "good" and "evil" are created by God and thus dependent on the existence of God
Everything is dependent on the existence of God.
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
We have our existence in Him.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
By Him all things exist.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So if God knowingly created evil beings would that not make him evil? And according to the Bible as shown earlier, it acknowledges that he did create evil.
This is one of them trick questions where you are trying to get me to speak for God. I think I will let Him speak for Himself instead.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
When you understand the ways of God let me know.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
It was necessary for what reason? If he knew the havoc and destructions these beings would cause, why create them in the first place?
I have answered this several times but will repeat. So you and I and everybody else could have a choice.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Why create beings who you know in advance would turn against you and then spend eternity in hell?
Nobody has ever convinced me the devil or his messengers have ever done anything other than what they are supposed to do. I am persuaded to believe they will always do what they were created for.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
To me that seams sadistic.
So.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So if God knowingly created evil beings would that not make him evil? And according to the Bible as shown earlier, it acknowledges that he did create evil.
You keep saying that as if you say it enough I will agree with you. I am not going to question the wisdom of God or God's plan for man. Nor am I going to worry about it.
I have a saying about worry.
Why worry about something, if you can change it don't worry just change it.
If you can't change something, why worry about it?
So you can worry about why God did this and why God did that all you want you can't change one thing He did or will do.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Why could we not exist without someone disobeying God's rule?
Not just someone the first man that was formed from the dust of the ground that God breathed the breath of life into. He was the only man who had a choice between eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. No one else ever had or will have that choice.
Had he not chosen to eat of the fruit he would still be in the garden as he would not have died and he would never have been kicked out of the garden.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Nice cop-out. I am sorry but this is just an attempt not to answer difficult questions.
At least it's as good as the "We don't know" I get when I ask where the universe that is at T=10-43 came from.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Why should we believe you if you try to avoid answering our questions?
I really thought I was making a statement rather than answering a question.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Isn't the whole reason for you posting on EvC, to try to save the lost?
No.
It is not my job to save the lost and I couldn't do it if I wanted too.
That is God's Job through His word and the Holy Spirit convicting people they need to be saved.
A person has to get lost before they can get saved.
How does a person who does not believe God exists and the Bible is a myth get lost?
I had been out of the country for over 15 years when I joined EvC and was far behind in up to date things, as I had been involved in building a church and parsonage getting it all paid for before I came back to the states.
So I came to EvC to catch up on current things as I had read many posts and thought it would be a good place to learn.
I was not disappointed too much. I do have a lot of questions that I would like to see discussed but that will never happen.
Now if I say something here that causes someone to question their belief system fine it not fine. I have put forth my view.
Also I have been able to discuss a belief I have held since I was 9 years old that everybody has always told me I was crazy for believing. You can find it Here. The title is The Literal Genesis Account of Creation.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-06-2009 9:08 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-07-2009 9:45 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 13 of 349 (493175)
01-06-2009 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Bailey
01-06-2009 11:10 AM


Re Demons
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes:
Are you suggesting the 'evil spirits' inferior to the Father, or the 'messengers of the devil', spoken of in Timothy are something other than 'demons'?
Please expound, so we may further respond.
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Notice my Bible translates devils instead of demons as many of our popular versions translate .
=
1) the divine power
2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
These are the primary meanings of .
I would think #3 would be best for Paul's application describing to Timothy what was going to happen.
Although all are correct. They have divine power given to them by God. They are a spirit being that is inferior to God, yet superior to man. They are evil spirits the (Angels) messengers of the devil.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Bailey, posted 01-06-2009 11:10 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Bailey, posted 01-07-2009 7:52 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 14 of 349 (493177)
01-06-2009 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Bailey
01-06-2009 10:52 AM


Re: Christ's Resurrection
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes:
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
So when did this take place?
How can I conclude this took place prior to or at Jesus ressurrection?
This event has not taken place yet.
This is the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period when the antichrist stands in the Holy Place and declares himself to be God.
If not how is it that:
quote:
for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
The devil accuses us before God everytime we stumble?
After this event the devil and his messengers are cast out and:
Bailey writes:
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come,
Christ will set his feet where He left from, many things will happen and He will set up His Kingdom here on earth that will last at least 1000 years.
Bailey writes:
Do you see?
So no I do not see how all that took place at the ressurrection.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Bailey, posted 01-06-2009 10:52 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Bailey, posted 01-07-2009 10:07 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 18 of 349 (493230)
01-07-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate
01-07-2009 9:45 AM


Re Demons
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Thus we put into our own hands the decision between good (what is morally acceptable by society) and what is evil (what is not acceptable).
Yes the first man made the choice to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus he gained the knowledge of evil. Man has been deciding what is good and evil from that day until this day. Regardless of what God said was good and evil.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
To answer your question. Human society as a whole has determined murder to be wrong
But not everyone.There are those today who are convinced that it is OK to kill.
They use all kinds of reasoning to prop up their belief that it is ok. But I will not get into details.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
See my other post here, it will explain why cause and effect before the beginning of time makes no logical sense:
But there was no beginning of eternal time which is one great big now.
Time as you and I know it did have a beginning.
As I understand time it is just a concept.
The measure of motion.
Time is an invention of man and is determined by how long the earth takes to make a complete revolution. If it did not revolve there would be nothing to measure time by.
But there would still be eternal time.
My understanding of time could be confused.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-07-2009 9:45 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-07-2009 11:12 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 19 of 349 (493231)
01-07-2009 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Bailey
01-07-2009 10:07 AM


Re: Christ's Resurrection
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes:
Interesting; we imagine otherwise. We contend Christ, and His Love, overcame 'death' shortly before mankind reset the counting of His years.
I have no problem with Christ overcoming death.
But I do have some problems.
I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John says I have a lawyer with the Father. Someone to plead my case.
If there is no one to make an accusaion against me, why do I need a lawyer?
According to you the devil is not allowed in heaven and can not make accusations against me, so who does?
So why can't Jesus just take a fishing trip and get ready for that thousand years of work He must do on earth?
Instead of sitting at the Fathers side making intercession for me everytime I mess up.
My sins are already covered by the blood of Jesus and my name is written in the book of life.
So who accuses me and the bretheren before God day and night?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Bailey, posted 01-07-2009 10:07 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Bailey, posted 01-09-2009 2:07 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 23 of 349 (493241)
01-07-2009 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by DevilsAdvocate
01-07-2009 11:12 AM


Re Demons
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I agree. Though I do enjoy the dialog.
I do to but we better do it somewhere else. If you would start a thread. But remember I can't participate in Big Bang and Cosmology.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-07-2009 11:12 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 27 of 349 (493746)
01-10-2009 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Bailey
01-09-2009 2:07 PM


Re: Christ's Resurrection
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes:
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.
Your misquoting the scripture does not make your view correct.
I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John said I am writing so that you don't sin. Slight difference.
But if you do you have an advocate (lawyer) with the Father.
Bailey writes:
If we needed a lawyer to further clear us of our crimes against the Spirit of Love, Jesus death would have been insufficient and His Resurrection deemed unnecessary.
The best illustration about my sins was one I heard back in the 40's by a man that would be classified as an uneducated country bumpkin. He had a big of red bandana that he would place over his hand after telling that the hand represented our sins and the bandana the blood of Christ. He would then say that when God looks at our sin all He can see is the blood of Christ.
So the only reason I need a lawyer to plead my case is as you say:
Bailey writes:
Perhaps, the debbil will say to the Father ...
ICANT did this and ICANT said that; the human does not love You!
And the Father will hear this ...
[cricket, cricket]
Instead of [cricket, cricket] He hears, [He is covered with My Blood]
Bailey writes:
We imagine John tells truth and reports we have a Comforter
Jesus sent the comforter to seal our spirit until the day of redemption and lead us in all truth.
Bailey writes:
Do you need a lawyer friend; what 'sin' has not been erased?
What accusation can the debbil drum up that would not be covered by the Blood?
There is no sin I can commit that can remove my eternal life.
But Bro. Paul does make the statement:
I Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Paul said some folks who are born again, washed in the blood of Jesus believers are going to suffer loss.
He said they will not lose eternal life.
But they will lose rewards. The way we do that is by building out of the wrong material.
I may be wrong but I think that means we better be doing the right things the right way for the right reasons.
If we aren't that is sin and we will lose rewards because of it.
God Bless and Keep,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Bailey, posted 01-09-2009 2:07 PM Bailey has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 29 of 349 (493748)
01-10-2009 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by bluescat48
01-10-2009 1:54 PM


Re: Demos = BS
Hi bluescat48,
bluescat48 writes:
As far as I'm concerned, demons only exist in one's mind.
I know you meant to say in the imagination of the minds of people.
But the little devils exist right where you said, "in one's mind".
He takes control of one's mind and causes one to act, say and do things that one would not ordinarly do.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by bluescat48, posted 01-10-2009 1:54 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 30 of 349 (493749)
01-10-2009 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Straggler
01-10-2009 2:48 PM


Re Demons
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Moral neutrality in the form of indifference?
So you admit there would be no choice?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Straggler, posted 01-10-2009 2:48 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 01-10-2009 5:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 39 of 349 (493837)
01-11-2009 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
01-10-2009 4:12 PM


Re Demons
Hi Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
1. Hi brother. I like your responses in this message except for this. If God created the forces of evil to tempt humans, why are Satan and his angels eventually cast into the eternal lake of fire, never ever to re-emerge in order to effect free will/choice for all of the host of the heavens, i.e. God's intelligent creatures existing here and there in the cosmos of the universe.
Brother there can be no doubt as to whether God created evil and the only things evil is the devil and his angels.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
This says "I the Lord create evil."
So God created the devil and his angels.
Their function is to tempt man and lead him astray.
Is there any other kind of evil God could have created.
He did say he created evil not the potential for evil.
You mentioned free will.
I don't think the devil and his angels had a choice.
Many think they did as you mention in the next paragraph.
Refering to Isaiah 14 where he is told to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon. Many think this is talking about the devil rather than calling the king a devil.
Or were you thinking of Ezekiel 28 where he was told to take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus? Many think this is about the devil.
When it comes to free will the only one I know of who had that was the first man that was placed on the earth. He was given the opportunity to choose to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or refrain from doing so.
No one else has ever had or will ever have that choice.
Your free will was limited to the choice of trusting God to save you and give you eternal life. You have no say in the matter of going to the lake of fire. That decision was made for you by the first man.
When you became a child of God's you can choose to obey Him or suffer the consequences just as you did with your earthly father.
Buzsaw writes:
2. James one verse twelve says that God tempts no man to do evil. So why would he create one to tempt man to do evil?
Good question. But why did He create evil in the first place as Straggler continually asks?
If there had been no evil, there would have been no choice. If there had been no choice there would be no you and I.
The first man and woman would be living in the garden eating fruit from all the trees as there would be no tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Buzsaw writes:
3. When Jesus was accused of the Jews of being demon possessed, Jesus's response was that a house divided/pitted/engaged against itself would fall.
That is correct and a fact.
Buzsaw writes:
Wouldn't the creation of evil by God go contrary to the kingdom of God, dividing his kingdom against itself?
God has His kingdom and when He created the devil and his angels he set up a kingdom and put the devil in charge of that kingdom.
Now the devil tried to divide the kingdom of God.
He offered Jesus the kingdom of the world if He would bow down and worship him.
Had Jesus done that the Kingdom of God would have been divided.
As it is right now God has a kingdom and the devil has a kingdom and they are pitted against each other and there is a constant war going on.
One day God will put an end to the war.
Even so come Lord Jesus.
God Bless and keep You and Yours,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 01-10-2009 4:12 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2009 2:02 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 42 of 349 (493915)
01-11-2009 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
01-11-2009 2:02 PM


Re Demons
Hi Buz,
I thought this addressed your question.
ICANT writes:
Hi Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
1. Hi brother. I like your responses in this message except for this. If God created the forces of evil to tempt humans, why are Satan and his angels eventually cast into the eternal lake of fire, never ever to re-emerge in order to effect free will/choice for all of the host of the heavens, i.e. God's intelligent creatures existing here and there in the cosmos of the universe.
Brother there can be no doubt as to whether God created evil and the only things evil is the devil and his angels.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
This says "I the Lord create evil."
So God created the devil and his angels.
Their function is to tempt man and lead him astray.
Is there any other kind of evil God could have created.
He did say he created evil not the potential for evil.
Isaiah records God said He created evil.
That is what God said it is not just my opinion that is saying God created evil.
Buzsaw writes:
For example, throughout the Bible, references can be cited which use the word evil as in destructive and injurious pertaining to conflict, etc. God brought/created evil upon Israel when they disobeyed him. Dangerous animals are referred to as evil beasts, etc. In Ecclesiastes 5:14, the writer refers to the fishes taken in an evil net.
But if God had not created evil none of these things you cite would exist.
There would be no evil period.
There would be no death.
Therefore there would be no you and I as the first man and woman would still be in the garden.
God said: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".
God created evil I can not argue with His Word. I must accept it.
The devil is evil personafied. So are his angels.
I conclude from that.
God created the devil and his angels who were evil.
They were created for a specific purpose.
That purpose was to provide man with a choice.
The devil and his angels were created to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
They have performed their jobs well.
I do not think the devil and his angels had a choice.
I could be wrong and not understand what God was doing.
But I know one thing God created evil whether I understand it or not.
God Bless and Keep You and Yours,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2009 2:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by caldron68, posted 01-11-2009 10:07 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 47 of 349 (494072)
01-13-2009 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by caldron68
01-11-2009 10:07 PM


Re Demons
Hi cal,
caldron68 writes:
The creation of Satan was not necessary to provide man with a choice between good and evil. As John 10:10 has already pointed out, murder and other evil acts exist without intervention from Satan or his nasty little angels. Free will alone is enough of an excuse for man to do bad things, no devil required. So yes, without Satan there still is evil. It's not just good, good or good.
You don't get it do you?
We are discussing this issue from a Bible view.
God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God planted a garden and put this man in it to dress and keep it.
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God told man he could eat of every tree in the garden except of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Now if God had not created the evil devil there would be no tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There would be no evil.
Therefore there would be no tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Therefore the man would not have had a choice of obeying God by not eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Therefore the man would have never died.
Therefore the man and the woman would still be in the garden dressing and keeping it.
caldron68 writes:
Given this, we can conclude that Satan
You can conclude anything you desire.
The facts are all that matter.
The fact is that if there was no evil devil there would only be two people in the garden fellowshiping with God.
caldron68 writes:
It's not enough that man needs to make a choice between belief and non-belief,
That is a choice you do not have.
You are born not believing in God.
Therefore the only choice you have is to remain where you are or either to believe in God.
Then if you believe in God you have a choice of trusting Him to give you eternal life or remaining where you are. Doomed to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
caldron68 writes:
God is required to inject the devil into the details in order to make things even more difficult.
If there was no evil devil there would be no choice, and you would have never existed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by caldron68, posted 01-11-2009 10:07 PM caldron68 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 83 of 349 (497153)
02-01-2009 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by caldron68
02-01-2009 10:23 PM


Re: added "as recorded in the Bible"
caldron68 writes:
I made this same statement in another thread and all three of you (Jaywill, ICANT and you) all chimed in to say that "NO", demons (Satan) cannot directly influence our lives. Are you changing your position on this now?
Where did I say that demons and Satan cannot directly influence your life?
Reference please.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by caldron68, posted 02-01-2009 10:23 PM caldron68 has not replied

  
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