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Author Topic:   Is my rock designed?
Bio-molecularTony
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 90
Joined: 09-23-2008


Message 76 of 219 (486121)
10-16-2008 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ikabod
10-16-2008 3:52 AM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
ikabod: so rocks are independant of god ..ok so which can first god or rocks ...

TONY: Already answered this. God created matter out of his energy, and created what we think of as "the natural" process the systems of weather changes, etc. that can form rocks.

Example: God does not create babies, for he created the system "processes" what will do it for him. God does not create snowflakes, just the weather system processes that form them themselves. So it is with most things like rocks. Once the "machinery" for the process was in place the action became automatic, functioning based on the designed parameters of the system (like carbon cycle, water cycle, etc.)

These process system cycles are not really natural. They needed to be setup, designed, started from scratch, that is provable. Matter is not natural and needed to be created, which rocks are made of.

So if you go deep enough, rocks are the product of design in some way or another. Just not directly into a rock in itself.

I hope this answers the question now!!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ikabod, posted 10-16-2008 3:52 AM ikabod has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Coragyps, posted 10-16-2008 7:16 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded
 Message 78 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2008 7:28 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 10-16-2008 9:41 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5323
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 77 of 219 (486122)
10-16-2008 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Bio-molecularTony
10-16-2008 6:59 AM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
They needed to be setup, designed, started from scratch, that is provable.

Where's the proof, then? You seem to have offered the same assertion a couple of hundred times here at EvC, but that's all.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-16-2008 6:59 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member (Idle past 162 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 78 of 219 (486124)
10-16-2008 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Bio-molecularTony
10-16-2008 6:59 AM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
God does not create babies, for he created the system "processes" what will do it for him. God does not create snowflakes, just the weather system processes that form them themselves. So it is with most things like rocks. Once the "machinery" for the process was in place the action became automatic, functioning based on the designed parameters of the system

So if the "processes" are the key then in what way are babies designed, any more or less, than rocks are?

You have said that rocks do not display design characeteristics.
Do you think that human babies display characeristics that suggest the need for design?

Your position seems very contradictory indeed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-16-2008 6:59 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 79 of 219 (486137)
10-16-2008 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Bio-molecularTony
10-16-2008 6:59 AM


Re: Does God design rocks - NO - Not complex as life is
Hi Tony,

I think we've fallen into a pattern here with us asking questions that you keep thinking you're answering. What's missing from your answers is any evidence. For example, when you say this:

Bio-molecularTony writes:

God created matter out of his energy, and created what we think of as "the natural" process the systems of weather changes, etc. that can form rocks.

What is missing is a following sentence that begins like this:

We know this because...<continues on to present the evidence and rationale behind the assertion in the prior sentence>...

In other words, discussion doesn't consist of just describing your position. Clearly characterizing your position is just the starting point. Once you've made your position clear then you have to go on to present the evidence and rationale supporting your position.

So you can't just declare that God created matter out of his energy, you have to present evidence that this is what really happened. You can't just declare that God created the system "processes", you have to present evidence for it.

Without scientific evidence supporting your position it will carry no more scientific weight than what it actually appears to be, a statement of religious belief.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Bio-molecularTony, posted 10-16-2008 6:59 AM Bio-molecularTony has not yet responded

    
se7ensnakes
Junior Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 3
From: Fort Pierce
Joined: 01-14-2009


Message 80 of 219 (494118)
01-14-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BVZ
09-10-2008 5:55 AM


A rock is designed
and so is everything else you experience. Your view of the universe is uniquely yours. If there is an object rock "out there" it certainly does not "look" the way you specifically see it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BVZ, posted 09-10-2008 5:55 AM BVZ has not yet responded

    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 81 of 219 (502555)
03-12-2009 9:38 AM


If ID cannot be used for something as simple as a rock... why are ID supporters using it for something as complex as a flagellum?

This thread clearly shows ID to be useless, since no ID supporter seems to be able to show me how to use it.


    
Urza
Junior Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 05-19-2009


Message 82 of 219 (509241)
05-19-2009 4:13 PM


The problem is that we cannot design even one experiment to falsify this theory, that God created your pet Rock (and, thus, if the experiment fails, prove that God is, indeed, the world's originator). Additionally, we cannot design even one experiment to prove that God created the world.

We can however continue to research the fundamental building blocks of matter. Your rock is not just a simple chunk of matter as you stated. Is a complex orchestration of protons and neutrons composed of quarks and who knows what… We can then take this information and make an intelligent decision on what we want to believe.

If I was you, I would put the rock down and keep an eye out for new discoveries via CERN.

Edited by Urza, : No reason given.

Edited by Urza, : No reason given.

Edited by Urza, : No reason given.


    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2756
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 83 of 219 (509250)
05-19-2009 6:09 PM


If ID is lacking in evidence and therefore through simple logic and parsimony deemed false. Perhaps the designer/designers (if there is one) did not leave any,(evidence) that is.

When I feed my fish, they do not seem to mind that the food I provide is man made. In fact I'd be willing to bet they could care less.

When I turn off they're light, it is I who decides when the sun goes down. How could they ever stand a chance to begin to comptemplate my
awesomeness.


Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phage0070, posted 05-20-2009 12:02 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 219 (509316)
05-20-2009 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by 1.61803
05-19-2009 6:09 PM


1.61803 writes:

If ID is lacking in evidence and therefore through simple logic and parsimony deemed false. Perhaps the designer/designers (if there is one) did not leave any,(evidence) that is.


So your argument is that you prefer to ignore parsimony because you don't think your fish care one way or another? Being a sentient person with concerns more advanced than a goldfish I don't agree with your assessment, although you are welcome to model your philosophy after a fish with a brain weighing 0.097 grams.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by 1.61803, posted 05-19-2009 6:09 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by 1.61803, posted 05-20-2009 3:19 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2756
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 85 of 219 (509336)
05-20-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phage0070
05-20-2009 12:02 PM


So your argument is that you prefer to ignore parsimony because you don't think your fish care one way or another? Being a sentient person with concerns more advanced than a goldfish I don't agree with your assessment, although you are welcome to model your philosophy after a fish with a brain weighing 0.097 grams.
Heh, since ID seems to have it's varying degrees..from zealot creationist to agnostics. So too does the word consciousness mean different things to different people. Does our sentient existence in anyway trump that of a fishes? And if a fish is more intelligent than a worm, can humans with our superior intellect surmise something may exist more intelligent than he/she is?

Is it possible for superior intelligent beings to exist outside of our ability to observe them like in some other dimension we can not comprehend. And if such intelligence does look on us like fish, is it any wonder our primitive arrogance and self importance keeps them amused. :D

Edited by 1.61803, : bad spelling.

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phage0070, posted 05-20-2009 3:36 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 219 (509338)
05-20-2009 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by 1.61803
05-20-2009 3:19 PM


1.61803 writes:

And if such intelligence does look on us like fish, is it any wonder our primitive arrogance and self importance keeps them amused.


If that is the case it would be all the more amusing if, from our perspective, the fish chose to be "humble" and think like the scum on the walls of their bowl.

There is no excuse to act stupider than we are because other things "get by" with less than what we are capable of. There is a difference between arrogance and healthy self-esteem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by 1.61803, posted 05-20-2009 3:19 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 05-20-2009 3:56 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2756
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 87 of 219 (509341)
05-20-2009 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phage0070
05-20-2009 3:36 PM


If that is the case it would be all the more amusing if, from our perspective, the fish chose to be "humble" and think like the scum on the walls of their bowl.
There is no excuse to act stupider than we are because other things "get by" with less than what we are capable of. There is a difference between arrogance and healthy self-esteem.

All I know is that energy through the processes of the universe manifests conciousness in many forms to include humans. The how is a matter of science and the why is a matter of religion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phage0070, posted 05-20-2009 3:36 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
SavageD
Member (Idle past 1530 days)
Posts: 59
From: Trinbago
Joined: 04-16-2011


Message 88 of 219 (638550)
10-23-2011 2:52 PM


is my rock design
There is no evidence or theory to suggest how anything could have been designed by an intelligent agent therefore, design does not exist. It's just imaginary, like my house, it wasn't designed...it assembled itself.

Edited by SavageD, : No reason given.

Edited by SavageD, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by subbie, posted 10-23-2011 3:17 PM SavageD has responded

    
subbie
Member
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 89 of 219 (638551)
10-23-2011 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by SavageD
10-23-2011 2:52 PM


Re: is my rock design
I take it from that assemblage of nonsense that you have no answer to the question asked in the OP.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by SavageD, posted 10-23-2011 2:52 PM SavageD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by SavageD, posted 10-23-2011 3:38 PM subbie has responded

  
SavageD
Member (Idle past 1530 days)
Posts: 59
From: Trinbago
Joined: 04-16-2011


Message 90 of 219 (638553)
10-23-2011 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by subbie
10-23-2011 3:17 PM


Re: is my rock design
I just said that intelligent design is imaginary...

Btw, why do you say that my comment is an "assemblage of nonsense"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by subbie, posted 10-23-2011 3:17 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by subbie, posted 10-23-2011 3:45 PM SavageD has responded
 Message 92 by Larni, posted 10-23-2011 3:47 PM SavageD has not yet responded

    
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